Author Topic: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi  (Read 741 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Matteo

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2017, 07:16:55 PM »
What do you think about these coins? An Italian numismatic has suggested that some countermark could be from Cilicia.

Offline EWC

  • Meritorious Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 807
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2017, 08:46:18 AM »
Hello Matteo,

Fascinating - thanks for showing these.  The drawings you put are from Franšois de Callata  - and it seems probably that is the work you refer to.  It would be useful if you could add a link to that work.  (BTW - Callata , who seems to me a very competent guy - he is Belgian by birth but holds a senior position in France I think.

I am rather busy just now, and anyhow finding my judgements rather unwelcome on this group - so I will not start another thread - but will quickly mention here that recent work in Israel suggests that a Hittite weight standard lay behind the later Jewish beqa standard, (11.33g).  This perhaps strengthens the possibility that the "Taxila" bars were also struck within a similar tradition

Rob T

Offline THCoins

  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5 437
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2017, 09:59:46 AM »
Thanks for making this compilation Matteo. I noticed the wave of these appearing on the internet. Some of the countermarks look familiar, some don't, but i am not an expert on these.
The standard list on countermarks/bankersmarks on the Siglos is i believed the Hill classification. You may know this already, but a chart of these can be found here.

Anthony

Offline Matteo

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2017, 01:02:15 PM »
Dear Robert and Anthony,

thanks for your answer. The De Callatay's paper is available on academia.edu: https://www.academia.edu/3388962/Les_monnayages_ciliciens_du_premier_quart_du_IVe_s._av._J.-C

It is about Cilicians coins with some countermarks similar to these "persian" countermarks. So I suppose it is possible that these sigloi are from the same area. Unfortunately I don't speak French and I'm not able to read the De Callatay's paper :-[


Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 172
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 01:32:50 PM »
The paper contains a catalogue with references. It establishes a chronological order between the countermarks, which is reflected in the table on page 115:

Ateliers - mints
1 Taureau Ó gauche - bull to left
2 Taureau Ó droite + "croissant" - bull to right plus moon
3 Taureau Ó gauche + "croissant" - bull to left plus moon
4 Taureau Ó droite + BAAL - bull to right plus BAAL in Armenian script

From the table on page 122, the author concludes that the countermarks are likely un-official and not a sign of re-tariffication. Most of the rest of the text is speculation on why production of the underlying type seems to move from one mint to another in time.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Matteo

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 02:42:42 PM »
The paper contains a catalogue with references. It establishes a chronological order between the countermarks, which is reflected in the table on page 115:

Ateliers - mints
1 Taureau Ó gauche - bull to left
2 Taureau Ó droite + "croissant" - bull to right plus moon
3 Taureau Ó gauche + "croissant" - bull to left plus moon
4 Taureau Ó droite + BAAL - bull to right plus BAAL in Armenian script

From the table on page 122, the author concludes that the countermarks are likely un-official and not a sign of re-tariffication. Most of the rest of the text is speculation on why production of the underlying type seems to move from one mint to another in time.

Peter

Thanks, Peter.

What do you think about these sigloi? In my opinion it is possible they are from the same deposit, probably found in Cilicia.

Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 172
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2017, 08:54:19 PM »
This is pretty far from my comfort zone, Matteo. The bull and moon counterstamp does look the same. Then again, those are common symbols. I would have been instantly convinced by a bull and Baal counterstamp, as Armenian script is a much better localiser than a bull or a moon. Instead, my doubts are fed by the bird counterstamp De Callatay doesn't mention. That's more logic than knowledge, though and illogical things happen all the time.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Matteo

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 07:29:49 PM »
This is pretty far from my comfort zone, Matteo. The bull and moon counterstamp does look the same. Then again, those are common symbols. I would have been instantly convinced by a bull and Baal counterstamp, as Armenian script is a much better localiser than a bull or a moon. Instead, my doubts are fed by the bird counterstamp De Callatay doesn't mention. That's more logic than knowledge, though and illogical things happen all the time.

Peter

Thanks Peter, your answer is surely logic :) Unfortunately I doubt we can have a certain answer about the origin of these coins. However I'm sure most of these coins are from the same hoard.

Offline Matteo

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 173
Re: A possible hoard of countermarked Achaemenid sigloi
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2017, 06:04:20 PM »
I have found another siglos with a "goat" countermark and other three coins: two drachms from Sinope and a stater from Aspendos. Each coins has the "bull" countermark and several test cuts. I suppose that also these coins are from the same hoard.