Author Topic: french? cross and a fleur de lis  (Read 731 times)

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Offline Michiel

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french? cross and a fleur de lis
« on: October 13, 2017, 10:29:35 AM »
I see a cross in a circle with bumbs in it, at the bumbs there are dots (sorry for my really bad english)
in the circle around it i see symbols or letters.

other side: fleur de lis in a circle with bumbs and dots again and also in the circle above symbols


Edit: forgot the size and weight

0.82 gram
18,98 mm at the largest place
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 05:05:13 PM by Michiel »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2017, 03:26:40 PM »
All the elements look French, but I don't recognise the whole. It may be a feudal issue or a contemporary imitation.

I read ...EN DNI RE(X) on the top picture. I would have expected something like SIT NOMEN DOMINI BENEDICTV, without all the letters being necessarily on the coin. Can't make anything useful of the legend on the lower coin. I would have expected something like (name of king) FRANCORVM REX.

I will ask that this coin be placed on our francophone partner site.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Michiel

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2017, 03:34:19 PM »
Hi peter,

both idea's also crossed my mind. But no luck with the search, Thanks for placing it again on the french board!

Offline saro

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 04:43:12 PM »
French for sure ! I think that it's a denier tournois of king Louis XII
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Michiel

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 05:17:20 PM »
The only one i could find with an matching back and front is this one. Size is only not correct.  I was forgot to write it in the starting post.
So i edited.

Or the coin is some bigger by hamering? 1,5 mm or even more...
But is it silver......
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces33602.html

Edit: i see that the silver is only 0.079. So that is not silver.
So i think it is the right coin!!!

Offline saro

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 06:23:12 PM »
It is not very clear but it seems that your coin possesses 3 lys flowers like this one.
could be the double tournois, with low silver content too.
"All I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2017, 10:59:43 AM »
Yes, one side almost fits a double tournois of Louis XII: cross potent in quadrilobe all in a pearl circle. Legend SIT NOMEN DNI BENE or variant. The issues are that the R in the legend should have been a B and the four dots in the corners. The R could be an error. The type was introduced by Charles VII and ran until Henri II, but none of the coins shown by Duplessy show dots outside the lobed ring. Since there is a similar specimen with two lis in Numista (it's clearly not the same coin; neither the number of lis nor the legend fits), you'd have to assume that Duplessy was wrong or there is a subtype he did not illustrate to argue that it is a royal coin.

The other side poses problems also. Again, there are dots outside the lobed ring that Duplessy doesn't show. The legend at 6 o'clock reads S•(...)N. Sticking to Louis XII (Duplessy 683, 685 or 686), it should have been LVDOVICVS:FRANCORVM:REX or variant. There is only one S in that legend, so the only solution for the legend fragment on the coin is S•FRAN. However, I don't think that fits what is visible, the next letter is not a C and there seems too many letters for the space available.

Taking the legend problems and dots together, I don't think it is an official royal coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Paris

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2017, 10:57:25 PM »
Some messages arrived after Peter's last message here. The coin is precisely a fake (because of the way of engraving letters) double tournois of Louis XI, not Louis XII. The official type has been created the 15 September 1476. Its numismatic reference is Lafaurie 545a:

Offline Michiel

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Re: french? cross and a fleur de lis
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2017, 09:27:43 AM »
sorry for the late reply, ill for a while. :-[
But thanks for the help.

I think I can put it in my collection under "contemporary fake double tournois under Louis XI after 15 september 1476"

Thanks to all.