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New Canada Vimy coin

Started by quaziright, October 05, 2017, 08:16:25 PM

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bgriff99

Jeez I'm getting old.    Have no passport, can't go to Canada, though live a couple driving hours from Niagara.    Last time I was there the loonie hadn't yet been invented, and the paper money I had leftover from a previous trip was so old and worn they wouldn't take it!     

chrisild

Quote from: quaziright on October 08, 2017, 05:42:13 PM
They're charging tax on money which is even more ridiculous. That's not the Canadian way

Well, apparently it is. ;)  What I am used to (in Germany, but I think that is common practice in other countries too) is that there is no tax on coins which are issued at face. But if there is a surcharge, mostly for collector issues, you pay VAT based on the total net price.

Christian

Figleaf

Quote from: quaziright on October 08, 2017, 05:42:13 PM
They're charging tax on money which is even more ridiculous. That's not the Canadian way

Sorry, wrong thinking. Money is stuff you use for paying. A piece that cannot be obtained at face value is by definition not money and can be taxed. A good precedent is the South African "Kruger rand". When it was first issued, EU tax authorities allowed a VAT of zero. After a few years, they decided that it wasn't money but a stamped bullion bar and started charging VAT on it.

In other words, if the Canadian mint charges taxes on the piece, it is an implicit admission that it is not money. I would argue that, by extension, this means that it is not a coin. It is a medal with a denomination pretending to be a coin. If you like the picture, fine. Just be prepared to pay the tax.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

quaziright

I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense. The coin will indeed be in circulation and i will be looking for them whenever I do some coin roll hunting. I usually always acquired a pack just so that I could make sure to have some unc grade samples for myself and friends. The whole point of them offering the 5pack was to help collectors like me pursue a hobby. If that service was not taxed till 2 years ago, they have no reason to do it now. There hasn't been a change in the tax code; just their very penny wise pound fooling thinking

chrisild

Quote from: Figleaf on October 19, 2017, 12:13:41 PM
A good precedent is the South African "Kruger rand". When it was first issued, EU tax authorities allowed a VAT of zero. After a few years, they decided that it wasn't money but a stamped bullion bar and started charging VAT on it.

The gold Krugerrand has always (?) been VAT exempt in the EU, as it is considered to be "investment gold" like many other pieces. See here (list for 2017): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:52016XC1019(01)&from=EN

But yes, as I wrote, at least over here there is a difference between coins that are made and issued for circulation (no VAT), and those that are not: As soon as a coin - even one that is also issued for circulation - gets a special packaging (coin card, box, etc.) or is made in some special version (PL, proof, etc.), it is usually surcharged, and thus not VAT exempt any more. With the exception listed above ...

Christian

Figleaf

Not always. I distinctly remember it got slapped with a VAT tariff (I believe it was 4%) at some time in the seventies or eighties, which hit sales quite severely. Before, a rand moved at gold + 400 bp, so the tax doubled the level gold had to move up before the "investor" made a profit. However, at the time, South Africa was linked to race discrimination and there were no competitors, so it may have been a politically inspired, temporary move.

Frankly, I don't see the case for a VAT exemption. Even the low VAT rate looks like an unwarranted concession to me.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

chrisild

With regard to the kind of gold coins in that list, well, maybe the gold lobby was and is influential. ;) After all, there are no "investment silver" or "investment platinum" pieces that get a similarly preferential treatment ...

Apart from that, it does make sense to me that there is a tax surcharged collector or commemorative coins. After all, they are not issued as means of payment, no matter whether they can be used for such purposes or not. What is a little mean though: The tax rate is applied to the full price of the product, not just to the surcharge.

Then again, that applies to various other "mixes" too. In Germany there is a beer tax that also applies to the "non-beer part" of a drink called Radler (50/50 mix of beer and carbonated lemonade) for example. ;D

Christian