Author Topic: Afghanistan Civic copper 1085AH (1674AD) Qandahar  (Read 6313 times)

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Offline Rangnath

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Afghanistan Civic copper 1085AH (1674AD) Qandahar
« on: June 24, 2007, 11:52:28 PM »
 A full 28 mm X 23 mm, this coin is HUGE.  If the coin were gold instead of copper, I wouldn't be here typing this out, I'd be traveling to the nearest melt down, cash in, and retire to Mexico!  It weighs 7.8 grams!!!

But what, when and where?  I've ruled out Swiss Colonial North African Trade Coin and a fund raising Tibetan Temple Token intended for sale in Saudi Arabia in an attempt to raise money for the largest free standing Guru Rimpoche Stupa in the world.  Any other ideas?
richie,
on a rainy day in Portland Oregon
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 06:47:29 PM by saro »

translateltd

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 01:47:14 AM »
A full 28 mm X 23 mm, this coin is HUGE.  If the coin were gold instead of copper, I wouldn't be here typing this out, I'd be traveling to the nearest melt down, cash in, and retire to Mexico!  It weighs 7.8 grams!!!

But what, when and where?  I've ruled out Swiss Colonial North African Trade Coin and a fund raising Tibetan Temple Token intended for sale in Saudi Arabia in an attempt to raise money for the largest free standing Guru Rimpoche Stupa in the world.  Any other ideas?
richie,
on a rainy day in Portland Oregon

If you have copy of Craig's Coins of the World 1750-1850 (the 1976 edition is best) to hand, have a look under Persia and Afghanistan for anonymous copper coinage with animal designs.  There's also a chart toward the front to help you work out mint names.  Not sure if Krause offers any more information than Craig on these particular issues.

BC Numismatics

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Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numismatist.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 03:18:36 AM »
Richie,
   This looks more Persian (Iranian) than Afghan.In Krause,there is a chart of the mintnames in Arabic,especially in the 19th. Century Krause catalogue (whose new edition has just come out recently with a light blue cover).

Aidan.
 

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 06:30:58 PM »
Thanks for the tips.  I'm off to the library and will give it a try. 
Richie

Offline muntenman

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 07:47:16 PM »
Definitely Afghanistan.
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 09:48:00 PM »
Iran, KM 83 copper falus 1085AH (1674AD) Qandahar. The mint name is the top line, the date is on the second line left. KM says: well struck copper falus with clear mintname and date are worth a premium.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 11:55:14 PM »
Well Aidan, I guess you and I lose. Thanks Muntenman.  And thanks Peter. 
No, that's not an earthquake that you feel,
it's me HITTING MY HEAD ON THE TABLE!!!!!
1. I just got back from the Portland City Library and visited a 1971 edition of Craig and looked at the 1601-1700 World Coin Catalog and I didn't see km 83! I wonder if it was me or the edition that I was using; it was an old one.
2.  I thought the second line was the mint name and was trying to see it as a creative rendering of KABUL. 
3.  I saw a partial date, 85, and thought to myself "wow, that's a long reign!" OK, so I'm young and immature (or short, bald and senile; same difference).
4.  I also spend a wonderful time looking through Iranian and Ottoman coins of the far Eastern provinces but I didn't see anything I recognized. 
5. Gosh, my head really hurts.

Thanks again,
Richie

BC Numismatics

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Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numismatist.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 07:10:23 PM »
Peter,Kandahar has not been part of Iran since the 1700's.

Here's an article; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar .

Aidan.

translateltd

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numismatist.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2007, 08:47:00 PM »
Peter,Kandahar has not been part of Iran since the 1700's.

Here's an article; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar .

Aidan.

If he said it was, I musta missed it :-)


Offline Rangnath

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2007, 09:19:30 PM »
This history of that area is complex and tribal, certainly not national. The territory that is Afghanistan has changed hands more time than a night at poker.  The year 1747 seems to be the date in which Afghanistan begins to act as a seperate entity from Persia with continuity.  I went through the Kiber Pass once.  Its like an archeological tel for invasions.  But for Persian, the languages of that area today didn't exist as formal languages with literature two hundred years ago.  And Persian was the language of most courts from Iran through to modern day Bengladesh. 
Richie

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2007, 11:46:57 PM »
What speaks volumes is the lion and sun, the symbol of the rulers of Iran. I agree with Rangnath on the history of the region and I'd add that you shouldn't think in terms of nations and borders in the 17th century, but in terms of who could collect taxes where. This is especially true in Asia. Old Chinese maps do not show borders, but documents tell us which "kings" paid treasure to the emperor, who simply claimed the whole world as his. However, since China was the centre of the world, the farther away from China you went, the less interesting the area was (Chinese sailors actually reached today's Veracruz before the Spaniards, but found the effort a waste of time and money). Therefore, the Farawaystans could simply be ignored, apart from such amusing inventions as the clock and the musket.

Islamic nations were not very different. Mecca/Medina was the centre of the world (even if you happen to rule them from Constantinople) and rulers routinely styled themselves king of kings, or ruler of the continents and the seas and other such lofty titles. The two differences that counted were that in the course of time, a second centre of Islamic power emerged in Delhi, where the ruler also claimed all the pretty titles and that Islam (like Christianity) tells its believers to go out and convert people.

Borders are more or less an invention of the Congress of Vienna (1815). Before that time, you were just as likely to pay a toll inland as on a border and discontinuous possessions and people speaking different languages in one ruler's territory were considered normal. Areas changed hands according to the marriages of its rulers. KM does not take this into account, of course as its catalogues are based on today's countries, so it does the best it can and puts them under the Iran heading. Not that it matters...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline muntenman

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2007, 08:31:24 PM »
NEVER HEARTS TO HELP ;D
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 10:20:36 PM »
True, muntenman and since you all saved me a lot of time with your hunches, this counts as a team effort in my book. These are "bazaar falus", locally struck coins accepted by weight. When I was young and innocent (a long time ago) you could still find the dies for sale in the local bazaars, along with dies for Maria Theresa thalers and other fun stuff that'd get you arrested in other countries. Can you tell I'm jealous of people who have travelled the Khyber pass?

Peter
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 11:27:01 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Chunky Arabic Copper ISO ID from Gentle Numistatist
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2007, 11:03:51 PM »
The coin dealer allowed me to buy most of what was in the musty box for a very modest price.  This included the two faluses from Iran. 
I'm delighted with them.  But I realise that I have you, our world coin community, to thank.  If you ever get to Portland, Oregon, please allow me to repay my debt.
As for the Kyber Pass, it is easy for me to romanticize and not remember some of the gritty details.  With every ?S? turn on the road through the pass, my head felt dizzier and my bowels, ever the revolutionary, cried ?liberation, NOW, liberation, NOW?.  During my first two weeks in Afghanistan, I was forced to quiet the insurgents within by living on bread, yogurt and tea.  A few months later, I was recovering on a mostly deserted Greek Island called Kimolos. I looked ecstatic in a photo I have from that period in time, taken in a passport photo Kiosk in Athens: like a freshly released detainee from Guantanamo.