Author Topic: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849  (Read 3065 times)

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Offline natko

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Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« on: January 06, 2012, 06:19:32 PM »
Year 1848 saw change of emperor in Austria-Hungary, linked of course to revolutions all across the monarchy. Already in March, ban Jelacic, head of the province of Croatia, severed links with Hungary, as an answer to their new born idea of great Hungary. Croatian language became official in Croatia, flags and coat of arms were used officially, expecting support from emperor Ferdinand same as Hungary already got. In September war was declared between Croatia and Hungary, who claimed most of Croatia. Jelacic regained Rijeka, whole Slavonia and Dalmatia, so reunited those three provinces after few hundred years. Anyway, you can read more about that war here. It was later supported by the Austrian crown, to keep whole monarchy under Habsburg rule, in 1854 ban Jelacic got highest medals from the emperor, for "favors done to the monarchy".

Anyway, in December 1848. Croatian parliament decided to open a mint and produce its own coins, in denominations of 1,10 and 20 kreuzer. One of the explanations was also lack of smaller change, but of course the main reason was rising of national question. Unfortunately, very soon, Austrian ministry of finance forbid all actions at the mint and was supposed to destroy dies and all coins (own coins means high autonomy). Two to three dozen of 1K coins exist today, with some of them, including original dies saved in state archive in Vienna. Since none of the other two denominations is known today, it's assumed all 10 and 20 K pieces were destroyed, including the dies. Silver quantity seized corresponds to official mint figures so this only enforces assumption. Their design surely didn't include Austrian eagle, so my best guess is they were similar to copper piece.

1 Krizar (literally translated Kreuzer, like Krajczar is Hungarian name) showed 9 times total on auctions, last time in 1992 (Rauch).


Design is obviously very similar to 1 kreuzer coins that circulated in that time (issue 1816), with central part of coat of arms changed into Slavonia-Croatia-Dalmatia coats, around which is inscription TROJEDNA KRALJEVINA HERVAT.SLAV.DALM (Triunite kingdom of those 3). Weighs about 9,6 g and measures about 26,5 mm in diameter, which is from some reason a bit heavier than 1816 kreuzer. To note, most of known examples have "scar" in the lower right of the rev., as a result of broken die.

Image of my profile pic here is of reproduction made in 2010.

Paper money was also made and only a few pieces remain today, as was systematically destroyed by the Franz Joseph decree, just like the coins.

"Forint" of ban Jelacic, which is often connected with those issues was minted several years later, as a medal "In the memory of ban Josip Jelacic" which might even mean that is minted in 1859, when he died. It is a medal without denomination, weighs less than 10g and although called "forint" probably ever since it was struck has no other connections with actual money.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 09:42:02 AM by Niels »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 01:45:45 AM »
Thank you, natko. I'd seen that piece only in your avatar and was wondering about it. My question to you is, what is this piece?

  • A coin, the first of Croatia?
  • A pattern that didn't circulate because it got into political and administrative problems?
  • A locally issued token, much like the early coins of the Isle of Man?
  • An illegal issue, much like the Lundy pieces?

What do you think and why?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 07:06:23 AM »
Thank you, natko. I'd seen that piece only in your avatar and was wondering about it. My question to you is, what is this piece?

  • A coin, the first of Croatia?
  • A pattern that didn't circulate because it got into political and administrative problems?
  • A locally issued token, much like the early coins of the Isle of Man?
  • An illegal issue, much like the Lundy pieces?

What do you think and why?

Peter

It is a cool looking coin. It was as 'natko' mentioned, they were coins proposed by the local ruler Ban: Josip Jelačić. However, Franz Josef ordered them to be destroyed. The only issues available are copies or facsimiles, since the few remaining originals are probably only found in major collections and museums. Here's one of mine.



CROATIA, SLAVONIA & DALMATIA (TRIUNE KINGDOM)~1 Krizar 1849 *COPY*
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 11:35:15 PM by Zantetsuken »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 10:36:50 AM »
Maybe I can clarify my question by trying to answer it. Why would Franz-Josef have a problem with this piece? He was used to Hungary having separate coins. The specifications of the coin were generally all right, if I have understood natko correctly. The design is suitably close to official coins. My guess he didn't like the word KRALJEVINA (kingdom). He may have thought that if there were any kings in his empire, he'd do the appointing, and if there's a separate coin, it should mention his name and titles. What bothers me is that natko says he got along well with Ban Jelacic afterwards. You'd expect him to be a little miffed at least.

It follows from there, that the piece is an illegal issue, much like the coins of Lundy. It is a coin in the sense that it was struck for circulation and that it would not have offended if it were not a coin, but it lacks the element of legality.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 01:23:41 PM »
Maybe I can clarify my question by trying to answer it. Why would Franz-Josef have a problem with this piece? He was used to Hungary having separate coins. The specifications of the coin were generally all right, if I have understood natko correctly. The design is suitably close to official coins. My guess he didn't like the word KRALJEVINA (kingdom). He may have thought that if there were any kings in his empire, he'd do the appointing, and if there's a separate coin, it should mention his name and titles. What bothers me is that natko says he got along well with Ban Jelacic afterwards. You'd expect him to be a little miffed at least.

It follows from there, that the piece is an illegal issue, much like the coins of Lundy. It is a coin in the sense that it was struck for circulation and that it would not have offended if it were not a coin, but it lacks the element of legality.

Peter

Hey Pete. My guess, and this just a guess, is that Franz (like most autocratic rulers) feared that could ignite nationalist feelings inside Croatia, an thus separatist ambitions. Even though Franz might have been close with Jelacic, politics almost always wins out. Same old story.

Offline natko

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 05:38:10 PM »
Exactly. Issuing own money represents sovereignty and simply can't be ignored by the emperor. Hungarian coins of same period were accepted though, as they made deal of dual kingdom of Austria-Hungary.

those did actually circulate for maybe less than a month, but listed under patterns as of obvious reasons. They are also considered patterns locally, so Peter's second question could be affirmative. Legitimity is dubious, they are issued under decree of Croatian parliament, which was then in Austrian monarchy something like a Land goverment in Germany. Later, ministry of finance, higher instance, nullified that decree.

First Peter's question...yes, it's considered to be the first modern coin of Croatia. Of course, there were Ragusa (Dubrovnik) coins from medieval times until early 19th century and also medieval coinage of kingdom of Slavonia in 13th and 14th century, as well as kingdom of Croatia and Hungary up to 1540.

Also, Zara (Zadar) siege coinage of 1813 is interesting as well, but it's not independent, it's issue of Kingdom of Napoleon, like earlier Venetian issues of Dalmatian towns.

Zantetsuken, nice to see interest on those also outside of Croatia. Although I bought it at the source, I didn't approve high price for this copy, but only about 100 were made, and as you said it's interesting anyway, furthermore now I see companies selling it around for high as 100 dollars. Way too much for a fantasy piece of copper. Not something of a quality as well. I'll try to collect people and make fantasy pieces of 10 and 20 križara.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 08:23:59 PM »
Exactly. Issuing own money represents sovereignty and simply can't be ignored by the emperor. Hungarian coins of same period were accepted though, as they made deal of dual kingdom of Austria-Hungary.

those did actually circulate for maybe less than a month, but listed under patterns as of obvious reasons. They are also considered patterns locally, so Peter's second question could be affirmative. Legitimity is dubious, they are issued under decree of Croatian parliament, which was then in Austrian monarchy something like a Land goverment in Germany. Later, ministry of finance, higher instance, nullified that decree.

First Peter's question...yes, it's considered to be the first modern coin of Croatia. Of course, there were Ragusa (Dubrovnik) coins from medieval times until early 19th century and also medieval coinage of kingdom of Slavonia in 13th and 14th century, as well as kingdom of Croatia and Hungary up to 1540.

Also, Zara (Zadar) siege coinage of 1813 is interesting as well, but it's not independent, it's issue of Kingdom of Napoleon, like earlier Venetian issues of Dalmatian towns.

Zantetsuken, nice to see interest on those also outside of Croatia. Although I bought it at the source, I didn't approve high price for this copy, but only about 100 were made, and as you said it's interesting anyway, furthermore now I see companies selling it around for high as 100 dollars. Way too much for a fantasy piece of copper. Not something of a quality as well. I'll try to collect people and make fantasy pieces of 10 and 20 križara.

I agree with you about the prices. Some of the Ebay sellers, for example, sell some of these facsimiles for $100 USD +, and I thought 'Are you f*(&%g' kidding me?'. I think I paid about $20-25 for mine. It's outrageous how much some will charge for copies, but even more outrageous when some will try to sell them as 'Novodels'. In fairness, some sellers might not have a clue what they are selling, but most just try to scam people, and hope to reap a fortune from it.

Balkan coinage (medieval and modern) are fun to collect. It's interesting to see how some of the traditional icons from the region are still used on their coins and other items.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 10:55:54 PM »
Balkan coinage (medieval and modern) are fun to collect. It's interesting to see how some of the traditional icons from the region are still used on their coins and other items.

I second that. I am enthusiastic about the lively series of coins, the history that wasn't part of my school curriculum, the 19th century rebellions, plots and counterplots, the colourful personalities. There is so much to discover in this area, that researching every new coin is a feast. I just got a coin for Franc Rozman (thanks, natko), who is every bit as much a fascinating tragic hero as José Rizal in the Philippines and that's just the latest example.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 09:30:11 PM »
There was also an older copy, I guess a few pieces only, somewhere from the twenties, as it appeared on the Croatian market as an original a couple of times. Ironically, now it ends up at Dorotheum as an original, which would be the first time a genuine example appears for sale since 1992. Only it is not, unfortunately.

https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=4223&category=115183&lot=3486682

To make the story more delicate listing cites the source paper where almost identical piece (probably cast) was defiled, along with a reeded edge specimen.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2017, 12:52:17 PM »
Why is it not an original? They quote references to earlier descriptions and say that the edge is smooth, while re-strikes have a reeded edge.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 04:10:23 PM »
The one from my profile pic is smooth as well and even closer to the original. Only one example with reeded edge is mentioned in the article.

HERE's the article in Croatian, first two pics are the originals, third is kinda similar to the offered one. Details are very different than on genuine pieces, take a look at letters in denomination or the uneven spacing in legends. Striking is collared while the original is made in older style. Also the weight is way off.

Last image in the article represents plaster model from the original dies. Only these can be considered originals, always with defect die break at 4 o'clock.

I have reported it to Dorotheum but they might easily do nothing. I'm left with a thought, our saying here, while there is sheep, there will always be wool.

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 05:22:53 AM »
My first post in a long time. The coin in question is a beautiful piece. It's a shame if it's not the real deal. Referring to what 'natko' mentioned earlier, here's an image of one of my coins from my collection for Zara/Zadar. These are tough to find and very pricey. (Sorry if this is off topic, by the way).

Offline Zantetsuken

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Re: Krizar and other Zagreb mint issues of 1849
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 05:26:43 AM »
My first post in a long time. The coin in question is a beautiful piece. It's a shame if it's not the real deal. Referring to what 'natko' mentioned earlier, here's an image of one of my coins from my collection for Zara/Zadar. These are tough to find and very pricey. (Sorry if this is off topic, by the way).
Interesting images, Pete. It's rare to see images of authentic pieces for these, considering there are so few in existence. The one I bought years back was a cheap facsimile, but since it's the closest I'll ever to owning one, it's doable. lol>