Author Topic: Is this Dutch Pagoda??  (Read 1188 times)

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Offline gsrctr

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Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« on: May 18, 2017, 11:57:19 PM »
I just bought this pagoda that NGC identified as a Dutch pagoda from Tuticorin mint. The pagoda looks very unique. The reverse is granulated, so probably it is a Indo-European specimen. However, the deity on the obverse side is a beautiful and faithful reproduction of Lord Venkateshwara, in contrast to the crude degenerated depictions of Vishnu on the Dutch and other Indo-European pagodas. In all my years of collecting these coins, I have never seen a similar specimen. Appreciate any pointers to the origin of this.


Offline gsrctr

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 12:22:47 AM »
For comparison, the obverse of a Dutch pagoda and this one, side-by-side.

Offline PeaceBD

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 01:36:50 AM »
So you were the one to outbid me >:(. It is an interesting coin. I could find an old auction result for this coin before it was graded :https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=128017

The coin you are comparing it to is a Indo-Dutch Pagoda from my collection. In my opinion your coin is also a Indo-dutch pagoda but probably of an earlier period before the design degenerated. If you look through multiple examples of this type you can see how the obverse design degenerated over a period of time.

Here is another example I found from Rajgor's: http://www.rajgors.com/lotdetailssold.aspx?LotID=1506&auid=5
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:50:54 AM by PeaceBD »

Offline gsrctr

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 03:03:42 AM »
Sorry Bhushan, fell in love with this as soon as I saw it. Wish you did not extend me so far, but still I am happy :).

I have seen Rajgor's. It is a little different and even more beautiful than this (picture below), but Rajgor's also lists this as Dutch. I have a different hypothesis. Will post shortly.

Offline gsrctr

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 04:22:17 AM »
I think this coin has an equal chance of being minted by the Madras presidency. In the book "South Asian Coins and Paper Money" by MarudharArts, two single swami pagodas are listed for Madras (figure below) before the star pagoda, one from 1643-77 and the second one from 1678-1740. The second one is quite similar to the degenerated Vishnu type (in fact some have been made in the same factories as the dutch ones).

The one in the picture (anantha varahan) was identified as the first type and NGC even slabbed a couple. However, recent Indian auctions have identified the coin as Anatha Varahan - detailed explanation at (https://www.marudhararts.com/index.php?page=pauctionitem&auctionnumber=20&lotnumber=649).

Given that the British got their permission to mint coins from Vijayanagara king Venkataraya (who had Lord Venkateshwara on his coins), my thesis is that their first pagodas must have resembled closely that of Venkataraya (and not a degenerated version). Could this be the one?

Offline gsrctr

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 03:24:15 AM »
Spent some time this week end and found an identical coin listed in forumancientcoins (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/india/vijayngr/vij_cat4.html) as by British India.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 01:00:28 PM »
There is, understandable, quite a lot of confusion about the attributuion of certain types of pagodas to various authorities in South India. In Felicitas Eassays in Numismatics, Epigraphy & History in Honour of Joe Cribb (Mumbai 2011) Babara Mears wrote an excellent article: A review of the Pagoda Coins of South East India duringh the Nayaka and Early Colonial Period (p.239-299).
The coin initially shown above is the earliest issue struck by the Dutch at Negapatnam. See for details: https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=56873 The second issue struck at Negapatnam is https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=56871 Similar coins were struck at Tuticorin and also, temporarely, at Colombo. See https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=56880
The for last pagoda shown above (reply #4) is not a Colonial issue, but was struck by Travancore. see: https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=137433
The coin shown in reply #5 is a locally struck Porto Nova pagoda. IMHO not a BEIC issue. See: https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=74391

Offline gsrctr

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 10:50:29 PM »
Thank you Oesho, for introducing an excellent resource. I agree with you, this is a early dutch pagoda. I still am a little confused as to the earliest BEIC pagoda. All the references show only a highly worn out specimen. Any chance you know a reference to a decent one?

Offline Oesho

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Re: Is this Dutch Pagoda??
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 03:05:41 PM »
These are in my opinion serious candidates for the earliest Madras Pagoda (Pr.1) and its successor (Pr.2).