Author Topic: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?  (Read 134 times)

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Offline CameronK

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Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« on: May 09, 2017, 05:10:30 AM »
I purchased this coin about 18 years ago. I'm going through my collection, re-cataloguing coins and this one is causing me some trouble! I bought it, labeled as a Denar of Hungary, 1566. However, most of the Denars I see are 15mm in size.

This coin is 21mm in size, and weighs .38 grams. I'm wondering if it's the next size up, in denomination, but I don't have a reference book to identify it. Can anyone 'weight' in on this?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2017, 10:27:47 PM »
Mint is Kremnitz (KB). This is Huszár 994. Official weight is 0.5 gram, but there is a specimen for sale in Ma-shops at 0.6 gram. If your coin is below 0.4 gram, it is significantly underweight. That indicates a fake, rather than a higher denomination, as your coin does not look worn or clipped.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline CameronK

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2017, 04:17:56 PM »
Thank you for the opinion. I'll check the rim for clipping and post a pic. Could you comment on the diameter mismatch (15mm for most of these coins, mine is 21mm)? This is what is throwing me off. This might explain the weight discrepancy. This was from a reputable ancients dealer, but I suppose they could have been duped too.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2017, 06:06:06 PM »
Since the whole die is on the planchet, your coin is not clipped. If it were clipped, the size discrepancy would have been even worse.

Take into account that the weight difference is 20 to 35%. That's significant and if you multiply that with a batch of coins you get a mint master who makes a loss. Not likely. One possible explanation of the larger die size, while the coin is lighter than officially prescribed is that your coin is not silver, but a lighter metal. Did you check weight and scales?

For a free catalogue of older Hungarian coins, download this.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2017, 09:11:44 PM »
The piece is utterly weird. They're not always 15, can go up to 16.5 mm but not to 21 mm. Font is slightly unusual only. Bearded Madonna maybe a bit more, but these exhibit wide variety of differences. Adding a weight of 0.38g to the diameter of 5 euro cent piece...that makes the weirdest part of it, can it be that thin? Sometimes, the regular denars were struck with one die only and they are so thin the other side is not blank, rather "incuse", reflecting all the details from the struck side.

Anyway, I highly suspect it's a souvenir. Groshes were larger and much heavier (almost 3g in that period), with different design.

Offline CameronK

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 02:28:33 AM »
I'm embarassed  :P. I mismeasured the diameter, and as you can see, it is more like 16mm. Also, although my scale isn't that accurate, I've weighed it several times and get weights between 4.2g and 3.8g, so I think this may fall back within the parameters of the Denar. Accept my apologies, and I invite further comments.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 07:12:22 AM »
That solves it. A bit light, but no longer worrisome and good size. Nice strike and little wear. Nice coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: Mis-identified Hungary Denar 1566?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2017, 09:17:53 PM »
Okay, I have no worries now, too. It happens to me all the time when I put coins in holders. I even write weight, provenance and then I realize I missed diameter by 2.5 or 5 mm. Simply short-circuits your thoughts. You may want to correct misspelled weight though. Underweight examples are not uncommon