Author Topic: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"  (Read 2590 times)

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Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 07:07:02 PM »
So WW2 was really behind the need for fiat money?

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 11:49:04 PM »
That depends on how you define fiat money. Fiat coins are as old as the Chinese empire. Even in Europe, many coins were significantly underweight. However, the theory was always that the coins contained their worth in metal. In practice, that was not often the case, though.

The gold standard described above was itself derived from the silver standard and the gold/silver standard. Its lower denominations were fiat coins, but in theory, you could always exchange them for a full value coin. Therefore, the value of those coins lay not in the trust that even though lightweight, each coin contained enough metal to give some security but in the trust that the government/central bank had enough metal to redeem all money into metal.

If you grasp that evolution, you will see that Bretton Woods is but a small step further in that logic. After the second world war, the US was a dominant economic power, dwarfing all others. It made sense, then, to replace the trust in your own government by the trust that your government had enough credit with US government, which in turn had enough metal to cover their debt. The US was the holder of metal reserves of last resort for other countries. If you wanted your cash redeemed in metal, you would in theory go to your local central bank or government office, who'd pay you in dollar notes, which you could offer for payment in the US where you'd get your metal.

As the gap between the US and other countries got smaller and the Vietnam war made the amount of USD outstanding in other countries larger, the US's position became more and more difficult. It became untenable when oil prices shot through the roof, so the US cut the theoretical link between dollar notes and metal. Nothing happened.

At what point do you see a change to fiat money? Around 1700, when silver hunger led to the first experiments with paper money? Around 1816, when lower denominations had to be exchanged for full value coins? After 1944, when the ultimate responsibility for redeeming cash in metal came to lie with the US? In the seventies, when the last silver coins were demonetised? Or did we always have fiat money, but we chose not to think of it as such?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 12:27:17 AM »
So, it's been a gradual and complex process. Just as well our resident anarchist didn't try to explain it, or he would have tied himself in knots.

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2017, 11:24:39 PM »
On January 1, 2002 the Netherlands joined the Eurozone and so abandoned the guilder which had been its currency from the first day of its existence.

I'm not at all happy with this ending. Could I have an alternative one, please?  :-X

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 11:26:27 PM »


This doesn't look like any photo of Queen Juliana that I've seen. Where is one showing her with that contraption on her head?

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 11:28:11 PM »
Also, why is it that some countries do not like the "50" ? The Netherlands doesn't, not does the USA.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2017, 10:17:37 AM »
This doesn't look like any photo of Queen Juliana that I've seen. Where is one showing her with that contraption on her head?

There isn't such a photo on the net as far as I am aware. The "contraption" is known as the diamond hair net. Wilhelmina abhorred sitting as a model, which may have been a reason Juliana sat for the portrait Prof. Wenkebach made for the coins. Shortly after, the hair net disappeared. There is no evidence of whodunit, but the logical culprit is her husband, prince Bernhard, who was a notable philanderer. Juliana made sure he was always short of money. The net is easy to disassemble and the diamonds would have given him some financial freedom.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 10:21:06 AM »
My, you do have a devious mind.  :o  It must have taken some talent to manage to deprive a prince of money.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 10:33:20 AM »
Also, why is it that some countries do not like the "50" ? The Netherlands doesn't, not does the USA.

At least part of the answer is tradition. In pre-decimal days, the gulden was one of the benchmark silver coins. It had multiples and divisions. In UK terminology, they formed a coin family. Note that the 25 cent was called 25 cent, though it was part of the same family. However, the family was split up by the gold standard: the 2 gulden, 1 gulden and gulden were full metal value coins, while the 10 cent and 25 cent were token coins and already produced in cu-ni, when the 2 and 1 gulden were still silverish.

The US must have had its own reasons, as they have no such tradition. The ingrown revulsion against anything having to do with the French revolution may have had a sub-conscious influence on some American political hero proposing halves and quarters for coins. The dollar's ancestor is the peso of 8 reales and the half and quarter are 4 and 2 reales. The quarter is (was?) known colloquially as two bits (a local replacement of the word reales), which would have been a more traditional name.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2017, 10:35:49 AM »
I'm not at all happy with this ending. Could I have an alternative one, please?  :-X

Well, that sentence should be rephrased anyway. "On January 1, 2002 the Netherlands joined the Eurozone"?? Of course not. On January 1, 1999 the Netherlands was one of the eleven founding members of the euro area. I know that with regard to coins, most of that three-year period can be ignored, but that sentence is still wrong ...

Besides, would you be so much happier with an ending such as "The guilder will resurrect in all its glory once the European Union falls apart"? :P

Christian

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2017, 10:39:41 AM »
"The guilder will resurrect in all its glory once the European Union falls apart"

Ach, cordon bleu schadenfreude.  >:D   Anyway, you know how conflicted I am on that issue.

Offline eurocoin

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2017, 10:59:22 AM »
Well, that sentence should be rephrased anyway. "On January 1, 2002 the Netherlands joined the Eurozone"?? Of course not. On January 1, 1999 the Netherlands was one of the eleven founding members of the euro area. I know that with regard to coins, most of that three-year period can be ignored, but that sentence is still wrong ...

Luckily the topic is not yet finished and has not yet been proofread.


Offline Figleaf

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2017, 11:13:44 AM »
In addition, the word "decimal" should be added to that sentence. The first gulden coins circulating in what is now the Netherlands were gold and from the Rhineland-Pfalz.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2017, 11:24:00 AM »
These things are what the Comments topic is for after all. :)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Comments on: "Milestones in the coinage of the Netherlands"
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2018, 08:28:25 PM »
The portrait was never introduced on the 2,5 guilders coin

You are right, but for the sake of completeness, the collection of the Dutch Central Bank contains a pattern for a 2 Gulden of this type.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.