Author Topic: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks  (Read 312 times)

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Offline mrbadexample

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Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« on: March 24, 2017, 07:53:31 PM »
Me again.  >:D

I have also acquired this, which after quite a bit of searching I think is a 2 tari, 1637. KM # 65.

It has been countermarked three times; I was hoping someone could tell me more about the countermarks.


Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2017, 08:00:24 PM »
Some close ups:

The first appears to be a crowned head on perhaps a fleur-de-lis. The countermark is shaped round the design:

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 08:02:04 PM »
The second appears to have been made after the first, and is oval with another head / face:

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2017, 08:05:49 PM »
I can make out nothing of the third, only that it is roughly circular. First photo is from the camera, the second with a USB microscope.

Any help in identifying / attributing the countermarks would be fantastic.

Thanks all,
MBE

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2017, 08:22:49 PM »
Having re-read the post and looked at the third countermark again, I think I can see another (crowned?) head. Looks a bit like Santa. Are these eyes?

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2017, 09:47:51 PM »
In the days of the Knights, Malta's trade was focussed on the kingdom of Napels. From 1759, Naples was in Bourbon hands and the house of Bourbon used three heraldic lilies in its coat of arms. It is not unusual for a coin of these times to remain in circulation for over 100 years. The lily may have been applied to certify the coin's fineness.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2017, 10:26:55 PM »
The countermarks were applied over a period of more than a century to revalidate the coins (2 and 4 tari) to counter persistent forgery according to Krause. The crowned fleur was first applied on 27th August 1696. All eight countermarks can be found on some coins (the best I had, disposed of many years ago with the rest of my European coins, had five).

Alan

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2017, 01:13:00 AM »
Thank you both.  :)

Alan, are you aware of any reference that depicts the 8 countermarks? I'd really like to pin them down if it is at all possible. I guess I'm imagining the faces (unsurprising as the human brain is wired up to interpret anything face-shaped as a face) but I can see now the crowned fleur on the first countermark.

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2017, 01:31:57 AM »
They are listed in the Krause 17th (3 marks) and 18th (5 marks) century editions, but are only illustrated on actual coins.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~jagatt/countermarked-copper-coinage-of-KOM.htm has fairly small drawings of them, but does have the historical backgound.

Alan

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2017, 01:44:59 AM »
That's fantastic, thanks Alan.  :D

It would appear I have countermarks 1, 3 and 4. Would you concur?

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2017, 10:31:35 AM »
Yes, I'd agree with 1, 3 and 4.

Alan

Offline andyg

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2017, 11:07:07 AM »
Always thought these were fun;
This is a 4 Tari - with 7 of 9 - even less left of the original coin though.

always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2017, 07:36:13 PM »
Good grief!  :o I see they weren't particular about which side they marked. I know copper's soft but I'm actually surprised yours hasn't split or worn through, with the pounding it's had.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2017, 09:52:23 PM »
I was wondering how a "simple" grand master of the order of the Hospitallers dared use a crowned lis. Here's the answer. The crowned lis consists of two symbols. The crown is the symbol of being prince of the holy Roman empire, ruling prince of Rhodes, later ruling prince of Malta, a title that comes with the job. The lis is from the family coat of arms: three red heraldic lilies on a silver background, the same design as that of the kings of France, but different colours (the king's lillies are gold on blue or gold on white.) According to Vignacourt (the name means "wine farm", which may be why the V was changed into a W) family legend, the arms were granted to a Vignacourt who accompanied king Louis IX on one of his crusades (7th or 8th.)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: Order of Malta 2 tari 1637 - countermarks
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2017, 11:29:51 PM »
I'm starting to think I'm not asking difficult enough questions.  >:D