Author Topic: S & T A duit by any other name  (Read 5032 times)

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Offline Figleaf

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S & T A duit by any other name
« on: July 10, 2009, 10:12:09 PM »
In 1783, the Colombo mintmaster, Frederik Damman, proposed to have dudus of 4 and 1 duiten struck in order to alleviate the shortage of small change. The Council of Colombo agreed, but Batavia said that sufficient duit pieces had arrived from the Netherlands. Colombo replied in 1787 that they would soon be insufficient, since the colony on Ceylon used only copper coin. They happily went ahead with the project, using copper from old cannons. Not exactly swords into ploughshares, but they went in the right direction.

Copper 4 duit pieces (1 stuiver) were struck with dates 1784-95 (KM 26). Though many dates are scarce, others are common. Copper 1 duit pieces (1/4 stuiver, KM 25) are much harder to find, even though they are undated. Even though all coins bear the Colombo mintmark (C), Schoten says they were also minted in Jafna and Galle. At 13.0 - 14.0 mm and 3.0 grammes, this is a tiny piece.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 04:53:22 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 06:35:16 AM »
Our Friendly Wikipedia gave me this information:

The duit was a Dutch coin worth 2 penning, with 8 duit equal to one stuiver and 160 duit equal to one gulden.
Duit is also the Malay and Indonesian language equivalent of the English term "money".


Can you help me out?  What is a dudu in relation to the above?  What is the origin of the word Dudu?  Which came first, the Dutch or the Malay word "Duit"?
richie

Offline a3v1

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 11:22:30 AM »
Richie,
The VOC began exporting Dutch duits to the east, but very soon they came to realize that the values of copper and silver in Southeast Asia was different from those in the homeland. So they stopped exporting Dutch duits and had their own duits (with the VOC-monogram) made for trade in the far east.
Wikipedia is only partly right !
In the Netherlands 8 duits equalled one stuiver, and thus 160 in a gulden.
VOC-duits in the VOC area equalled 4 to a stuiver and thus 80 in a gulden. 
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
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Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

translateltd

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 11:45:59 AM »
Not sure how much it adds, but "dudu" was a denomination issued by the French in their enclaves in India.  How these are connected to duits I know not, but I will be most interested to find out!


Offline Figleaf

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 01:35:11 PM »
Dudu is a generic term for "small copper coin", value or denomination unspecified. Not sure where the term comes from. One legend has it that it comes from Persian ...


BTW, duit as a term for money is pronounced locally not as in Dutch but as doo-wit.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 01:36:44 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 07:37:41 PM »
Thanks to you, gentlemen, I am learning. 
Peter, I was pronouncing duit as doo-wit, to rhyme with the English "I blew it!".  How would I pronounce it as in Dutch?
a3v1, the numbers of duits per Gulden is a bit confusing. 
1. are the VOC duits twice the size of those used in the Netherlands?
2. Was there an approximate date when the switch was made from 160 to 80?
3. Was Dudu a term only used "overseas" to describe copper coinage or was it a term also used in the Netherlands?

I shouldn't think there is a connection with the numismatic Dudu and the Amercan street term for canine fecal matter, or "doodoo", unless the origin was from "it isn't worth a copper".  ::) But who knows. 
richie

Offline Figleaf

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 08:35:52 PM »
We don't use umlauts, but letter combinations instead, so ui is one sound. It is a sound that doesn't exist in English. It exists in French in words like oeil, seuil and feuille.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline a3v1

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 09:14:01 PM »
Richie,
If you pronounce duit as "doit" it comes pretty close to what it sounds in Dutch.
Dutch duits (used within the Netherlands) and VOC-duits (used in southeast Asia) are of equal size and weight.
You must realize that these coins circulated in two completely different monetary systems. And half a Globe apart, too. Copper was relatively more expensive in Southeast Asia.
VOC introduced their own (VOC-marked) duits in 1726.
One of the main reasons was to prevent ship's crewsmen from smuggling Dutch duits (value ⅛ stuiver) and circulate them in Asia (where its value was ¼ stuiver) thus making a 100% profit.
Regards,
a3v1 
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
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Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

translateltd

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 09:43:07 PM »
We don't use umlauts, but letter combinations instead, so ui is one sound. It is a sound that doesn't exist in English. It exists in French in words like oeil, seuil and feuille.

Peter

To my ear (which Peter believes has been corrupted by the Amsterdam accent!) it's almost exactly the same as the way someone from Belfast (Northern Ireland) would say "doubt", but a little faster.  Try to say "ow" but squeeze an "ee" in there at the same time, which gives you the sort of hybrid vowel you need. 

In defence of my Dutch ear and doubtless appalling Dutch accent, I've never heard the French vowel that Peter describes used on the Dutch TV that we get here by satellite, not yet, anyway - I'll have to listen a bit more closely now!


Offline Rangnath

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 12:48:38 AM »
Thanks Peter, Martin and a3v1.  As was said in "My Fair Lady", BY George, I think I've Got IT!
richie

Offline Oesho

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 01:22:14 AM »
Some explanation regarding the Dudu. It’s the name of a copper coin used in South India and Ceylon and was equal to 10 Kas. Around 1700 eight dudu’s were equal to a gold fanam.
On Ceylon, during the Dutch period, the Dudu was equal to 1 stuiver. But in general terms the Dudu is also used to indicate other denominations. Sometimes one comes across the term a Dudu of 1 duit (=1/4 Stuiver). This is similar to lead and tin coins of different denominations which in general terms were all called “Bazaruco’s”
Between 1646 – 1674 the Dutch struck at their settlement at Paliakate (present Pulicat) a Dudu of X Kas and a ½ Dudu of  V Kas, intended for circulation on Ceylon.
Initially the weight of the Dudu was 16.4 – 17.2 g., but in due course the weight of it decreased to about 13 g.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 06:28:26 AM »
I re-read your post three times Oesho. Your text was perfectly clear but the subject matter is Complicated!
The Kas preceeded the colonial period, didn't it?  Did the Dudu as well?
richie

Offline Oesho

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 11:40:38 AM »
I re-read your post three times Oesho. Your text was perfectly clear but the subject matter is Complicated!
The Kas preceeded the colonial period, didn't it?  Did the Dudu as well?
richie
Sorry that my reply created so much confusion, but the etymology of coins names is often difficult.
Dudu was a word which already existed in South India (Tamil Nadu) before the colonial period.
Cash is a name applied by Europeans to sundry coins of low value. Its derived from Sanskrit "karsha", which in Tamil became Kasu. The Portuguese called it Caixa, whereas the British made it Cash. In Singhalese Kasi is used as term for coin in general.
The English term was appropriated in the monetary system which prevailed in South India up to 1818; thus there where copper coins for use in Madras, struck in England, which bear on the reverse the value in Cash. Under this system 80 cash=1 fanam.

The Dudu = 10 Kas (Cash); 8 Dudu = 1 fanam. In Telugu the Dudu is called Dabbu, of which the British made Dub and the French Dabou

As mentioned above the Portuguese, from an early date applied the name caixa to the small money of foreign systems, such as the Malay Islands, and especially to that of the Chinese.
Therefore we now call the Chinese cast copper and brass coins ‘Cash’, which of course is not their original name.
The existence of the distinct English word ‘Cash’ may probably have effected this form of corruption. The word has a European origin, from Italian cassa, French caisse, ‘the money-chest’: this word in bookkeeping having given name to the heading of account under which actual disbursement of coin were entered.

The earliest reference of a European (Portuguese) source is from 1510 “They have also another coin called cas, 16 of which go to a tare of silver.”

In 1598 Jan Huygen van Linschoten in his Itinerario mentions: “You must understand that in Sunda there is also no other kind of money than certaine copper mynt called Caixa, of the bignes of a Hollandes doite, but not half so thicke, in the middle whereof is a hole to hang it on a string, for that commonlie they put two hundreth or a thousand upon one string.”

A reference from 1711 mentions: “Doodoos and Cash are copper coins, eight of the former make one Fanam, and ten of the latter one Doodoo.” (Doodoo = Telugu duddu, Sanskrit dvi, ‘two’; a more modern scale is: 2 dooggaunies = 1 doody: 3 doodies = 1 Anna.”

In 1813 at Madras the coinage was "10 Cash=1 doodee; 2 doodees = 1 pice; 8 doodees = 1 single fanam."

Offline Rangnath

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Re: S & T A duit by any other name
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 11:31:54 PM »
That was terrific information Oesho, and, I must say, rather generous.
Thank you so much. 

richie

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Dudu & Doudou.
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2009, 03:40:10 AM »
Some explanation regarding the Dudu. It’s the name of a copper coin used in South India and Ceylon and was equal to 10 Kas. Around 1700 eight dudu’s were equal to a gold fanam.
On Ceylon, during the Dutch period, the Dudu was equal to 1 stuiver. But in general terms the Dudu is also used to indicate other denominations. Sometimes one comes across the term a Dudu of 1 duit (=1/4 Stuiver). This is similar to lead and tin coins of different denominations which in general terms were all called “Bazaruco’s”
Between 1646 – 1674 the Dutch struck at their settlement at Paliakate (present Pulicat) a Dudu of X Kas and a ½ Dudu of  V Kas, intended for circulation on Ceylon.
Initially the weight of the Dudu was 16.4 – 17.2 g., but in due course the weight of it decreased to about 13 g.


Jan,
  French India also had Dudus as well,but they were called Doudous,which is just the French spelling.

Aidan.