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Author Topic: Westphalia notgeld token  (Read 547 times)

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Offline Manzikert

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Westphalia notgeld token
« on: February 11, 2017, 12:10:26 AM »
Some time ago I acquired a token which was well outside my normal field, a 1923 Westphalian notgeld piece for 50 million marks. I was just fascinated by the denomination, and also the impressive size (44 mm, 33 gm).

Last week I was able to acquire seven more of the series, ranging from 1 to 500 marks, and in date from 1921-1923. On the packets they came in are references to 2 catalogues, 'Jaeger' and 'Funck'. Though I usually subscribe to the 'buy the book before the coin' idea, I have no desire to expand into tokens in general, so don't really want to spend a lot on these catalogues. I was wondering therefore if anyone who has them would be kind enough to let me have scans of just the pages which cover the Westphalian 1921-1923 issues?

Thank you

Alan

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2017, 11:57:34 AM »
I hope someone reacted by PM. If not, the information you are looking for may be here.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline quaziright

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2017, 02:14:38 PM »
I will send you the page scans. My friend recently gifted me a German notgeld catalogue.

Beautiful piece BTW

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2017, 10:54:27 PM »
@ Peter, I'm afraid qaziright's offer is the first one.

I now have 10 of the series, and I have tried to sort them out by the references quoted by the various sellers on ebay as well as the ones I've bought. The result is this list of what I know should be available (the ones I have in bold), but I'd very much appreciate any corrections, further details of varieties and mintages. I know the earlier ones were struck by Heinrich Kissing, but information as to who struck the later ones (or confirmation it was also Kissing) would be welcome.

Funck 599.1   50 pf aluminium Stein 1921           Jaeger N 9   Kissing 258,023
Funck 599.2   1 mk aluminium Stein 1921 26mm      Jaeger N 10   Kissing 173,191
Funck 599.3   5 mk aluminium Stein 1921 32mm      Jaeger N 11   Kissing 120,713

Funck 599.5   10 mk bronze Stein 1921 38mm                    Kissing 116,489

Funck 645.1   100 mk bronze Stein 1922 26mm
Funck 645.2   500 mk tombak Stein 1922 38mm              Jaeger N 15      57,593
Funck 645.3   50 mk aluminium Hulshoff 1923 28mm           [Jaeger N 16?]
Funck 645.4   100 mk tombak Hulshoff 1923 26mm           [Jaeger N 18?]      97,453
Funck 645.5   100 mk aluminium Hulshoff 1923 38mm           Jaeger N 17      95,149
Funck 645.6   500 mk tombak Hulshoff 1923 38mm           Jaeger N 19      65,117
                        10,000 mk tombak Stein 1923 44mm   Jaeger N 20
Funck 645.7   10,000 mk tombak gilt Stein 1923 44mm   Jaeger N 20a
F. 645.7a wide rim, 645.7b narrow rim
Funck 645.8   ¼ million mk aluminium Stein 1923 24mm   Jaeger N 21?]
Funck 645.9   2 million mk aluminium Stein 1923 26mm     Jaeger N 25
Funck 645.10A 5 million mk tombak Stein 1923 44mm   [3 line denomination, scarce]
Funck 645.10B 5 million mk tombak gilt Stein 1923 44mm   Jaeger N22 [2 line denomination]
Funck 645.11A 50 million mk tombak gilt Stein 1923 44mm   Jaeger N 23a
Funck 645.12   50 million mk aluminium Stein 1923 44mm           Jaeger N 27
Funck 645.13   50 million mk aluminium Stein 1923 38mm   Jaeger N 26

@ qaziright, I'd be very grateful for any information you can give me.

Thanks to both of you

Alan

Offline quaziright

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2017, 11:38:32 PM »
send me a pm with your email address

Offline chrisild

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 11:15:09 PM »
According to the Jaeger catalog, the Westfalen pieces were produced by Heinrich Kissing, Menden except for the following ones:
N16-N19: Schulte Devotionalien und Metallindustrie, Menden
N20b, N22, N23b: Berlin Mint, gilded by Kissing
N26, N27: Berlin Mint
N25: mostly (248,500) Kissing, but also (47,289) Deumer, Lüdenscheid and (94,300) Lauer, Nürnberg.

Christian

Offline Manfred1

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 12:18:18 PM »
More of the same "horse"


Offline Henk

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 01:44:12 PM »
This, I think is the most interesting one, with the value of 1 Billion Marks! (Photo copied from Numisbids)

Offline Manfred1

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 02:31:11 PM »
During February 1923, my 500 mark coin was not enough to buy 1 pound bread ...

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 07:43:11 PM »
IIRC the billion mark piece was struck in silver. It doesn't fit in the series, which is otherwise executed in (very) cheap metals. Also, the yellow pieces are not gilded. It is clear from the colour, especially when they have patina, that they are brass-clad.

I believe these were advertising tokens for a lottery. See also this post, explaining Jaeger's position.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 08:15:13 PM »
Not really a lottery - those pieces were issued for fundraising. But since they are very common, and also come in high denominations, they are quite popular among collectors. :)

Christian

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 10:21:06 PM »
The 'circulation' examples of the billion marks were struck in gilt tombak and silver plated nickel silver, and there are a small number (as there are of other denominations) struck in silver, but these were effectively NCLT and intended purely for collectors. All of the 1 billions were struck post-inflation and sold at 2.50 marks (the face value was equivalent to 1 mark).

Some of the 'brass' ones are just struck in tombak, but others are definitely gilt: as Christian says in his post, Jaeger N20b, N22, N23b were struck at the Berlin Mint, and then gilded by Kissing.

Alan

Offline Manfred1

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Re: Westphalia notgeld token
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 08:24:55 AM »

I believe these were advertising tokens for a lottery. See also this post, explaining Jaeger's position.

Peter

Thank you, very interesting information.