Author Topic: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin  (Read 3629 times)

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Offline ATtheCollections

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Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« on: December 29, 2016, 10:44:09 AM »
i have Coin tin Pitis found in Batanghari , this coin Uniface



Thanks

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2016, 12:42:10 PM »
Looks like an Atjeh keping to me, see Netherlands East Indies - Atjeh KM 1. It may be a sand mould one-sided imitation, but many different dies are known.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ATtheCollections

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 05:17:27 PM »
Pidie is a vassal of the Sultanate of Aceh. Located east coast of the northern part of Sumatera. Pidie was destroyed by Sultan Ali Mughayat Shah of Aceh in  when the Raja of Pidie (Sultan Ahmad) allied with the Portuguese. Eventually the Portuguese also left the area of northern Sumatra when their fort in Pasai was destroyed by the Aceh forces. ?? this true??

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 11:30:06 AM »
Sorry, ATtheCollections, I have no books on the history of that part of the world. Wiki is silent on the history of Pidie. Where did you get your information from? Would you consider it a reliable source?

If the Pidie sultanate was destroyed by the Atjeh sultanate, it would not be logical that Pidie copied the coins of Atjeh. It would be good to weigh your coin and compare it with the official Atjeh issue. If it is too light, that and the way the planchet was cut would indicate an imitation. The official coins are tin or zinc. If yours is copper or contains a significant amount of copper it is certainly an imitation.

BTW, contemporary counterfeits are at least as sought after as official coins.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ATtheCollections

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 04:25:05 PM »
OKE my friend , thanks for your identify ^_^

i have coin pitis found in batanghari ,  i not understand for languange / legend . please help again ^_^

1.
Quote
this Silver  :


2.
Quote
this Tin pitis :



3.
Quote
this tin pitis :




« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 05:14:53 PM by ATtheCollections »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 06:11:29 PM »
Number three is a variant of Netscher & Van der Chijs 214, pitis, no date, legend degenerated to the point where it can no longer be read. Compare this thread. Better still, do a search on Palembang and read all the threads. There is much information available on this site.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 06:48:25 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ATtheCollections

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2016, 08:57:25 AM »
Number three is a variant of Netscher & Van der Chijs 214, pitis, no date, legend degenerated to the point where it can no longer be read. Compare this thread. Better still, do a search on Palembang and read all the threads. There is much information available on this site.

Peter

thanks for Comment, i think not in Netscher & Van der Chijs 214 [ Arabic Legend ] no. 3 is OLD JAVANESE LANGUANGE sir

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 05:19:52 AM »
Coin #2 is Siak, and a gem.   Legend reads 'Sri Pangeran Siak'.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2017, 03:41:35 PM »
Peter, your illustration 214 is written in Arabic, but stylized and corrupted to resemble Javanese.    At the bottom is "zarb fi".     The original more legible version was not dated, reading 'Zarb fi bilad Palembang dar al-Salam.'

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2017, 04:25:28 PM »
As stated above, my source is Netscher and Van der Chijs. That's an old book (1863), but it is written by advanced collectors and based on original research of the coins of the Batavian Society for History Science (Bataviaasch Genootschap voor Oudheidskunde) and some private collections. At the time, there was no pervasive problem of fantasies and frauds - though there were official imitations and forgeries. In other words, the coins described by NvdC exist and are highly likely to be genuine.

In the intervening 150 years, there must have been new discoveries and insights. I am glad to discover them and I wish there were a newer trustworthy catalogue recapitulating them. At the same time, much information was lost when Indonesia became independent and fraud took an unprecedented flight in Indonesia. One of my friends, who bought numismatic material for a Dutch bank, estimated that by 1980, 80 to 90% of the coins and tokens offered from Indonesia were frauds or fantasies.

I am very appreciative of new insights. When it comes to discoveries, I have a short list of experts I trust and bgriff99 is on it. Beyond that, I think it is important to be very careful indeed.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ATtheCollections

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2017, 11:23:41 PM »
Coin #2 is Siak, and a gem.   Legend reads 'Sri Pangeran Siak'.

how do you read it? please provide me alphabetic scripts sir, TQ

Offline ATtheCollections

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2017, 11:31:01 PM »
As stated above, my source is Netscher and Van der Chijs. That's an old book (1863), but it is written by advanced collectors and based on original research of the coins of the Batavian Society for History Science (Bataviaasch Genootschap voor Oudheidskunde) and some private collections. At the time, there was no pervasive problem of fantasies and frauds - though there were official imitations and forgeries. In other words, the coins described by NvdC exist and are highly likely to be genuine.

In the intervening 150 years, there must have been new discoveries and insights. I am glad to discover them and I wish there were a newer trustworthy catalogue recapitulating them. At the same time, much information was lost when Indonesia became independent and fraud took an unprecedented flight in Indonesia. One of my friends, who bought numismatic material for a Dutch bank, estimated that by 1980, 80 to 90% of the coins and tokens offered from Indonesia were frauds or fantasies.

I am very appreciative of new insights. When it comes to discoveries, I have a short list of experts I trust and bgriff99 is on it. Beyond that, I think it is important to be very careful indeed.

Peter

Thanks sir ... yes i have jurnal neteser & van der chrijh and Hc millies archipelago,, nothing for identify for my coin... and i have coin pitis unlisted and ORIGINAL findings river in my town, the island of Sumatra ... this i send agai Picture my collection

No. 4

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2017, 03:31:46 AM »
Number 2 coin, I have one also.    There is reference for it in Oriental Numismatic Society Journal number 213.    Someone has sent me electronic version.    I will prepare alphabet transcription soon.

Number 3 coin is Siak but different inscription.   I have that kind too, and will study until finding exact lettering.   I will post here when ready.   Bottom of script is around centerhole.    It is Javanese, pretty well written.

Number 4 is private counterfeit, or just bad writing of #3 kind.

Offline bgriff99

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 09:44:07 AM »
This is my piece, same as your coin #2.   I used transcription of Mitchiner, and it is not very good match to the coin as he drew it.   I cannot reproduce, have to draw again.   Some letters clearly use the honorific form.   Others are shorthand, do not have final consonant marker, do not have correct vowel.   So I draw a little different.   

It is supposed to say "Sri Pangeran Siyak".   But really says "Sri Panagaran Saye(?)".    Maybe oval mark was pushed from over Si to Ya, in which case it does read Siya-.   Letter K is a mess, but does look like the way it is written on other Siak pitis.   Old-new Javanese is so mixed up with various ways to write, I am trusting Mitchiner used process of elimination to be sure "Siyak" isn't really "Banten"..... or Jambi, Kedah, etc.   They all had pangerans.

 

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Please help for identified this Tin Pitis Coin
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2017, 12:18:25 PM »
Great stuff, gentlemen. Enjoying this. The write-up in JONS is excellent news also.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.