Author Topic: S & T Bonk!  (Read 3216 times)

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Offline Figleaf

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S & T Bonk!
« on: July 11, 2009, 10:50:04 PM »
Here is the companion to the dudu duit: the dudu stuiver. This is not a fragment, but how the coin was struck. Rolls of Japanese copper were used to make slices, but not all the slices were round. Never mind, weight is more important than size. Note how the minter tried to make the best of the planchet by putting as much as possible of the die on the coin. Only one letter is completely missing (I think I can see traces of the top of the first 1 in the date).

Obverse: VOC balemark under C (Colombo)
Reverse: 1 STUIVER 1791 in three lines

Peter
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:52:58 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Rangnath

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 06:39:28 AM »
What a great coin Peter!  Is it unusual to find these in such good condition? 
Imagine; Japanese Copper?  Trade was more sophisticated in the 1790s than I thought!
richie

translateltd

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 07:08:54 AM »
No chance that that is a slip for "Javanese copper"?  The only reason I ask is that when I was in Japan in the 1980s I collected various examples of what are known in Japan as "Eiraku Sen" (Yongle Tongbao in Chinese, theoretical dates 1403-25, though struck much later), and the dealer I was talking to explained that they were so popular that they were struck throughout East Asia - which I believe to be correct - including Java, and that the Javanese issues could be identified by the particular redness of the copper, whereas the Ja*p*anese ones tended to be more brassy.

I've since acquired a silver example from Japan, but that's another story entirely.  The design is the same, though, so here it is for reference.  When I find the "Javanese copper" one I'll post a pic, alongside some regular Japanese examples.

Offline andyg

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 09:28:42 PM »
Do these normally have the borders this one has?
Note complete lack of S in Stuiver, perhaps causing the ebay seller to list it as a South African (?) Tuiver coin.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

akona20

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 10:06:16 PM »
Yasuko Suzuki has written some great artciles on the Japanese copper with India and the surrounding area from around the mid 1600's to the early 1800's (moslty with the Dutch )

Japan had an embargo on the export of copper from 1638-1645 but after that time they were a major player in copper trade also with Europe and a reltive copper price boom occurred in the latter 17th century and arbitrage opportunities arose in various parts especially the sub continent.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 12:19:57 AM »
This type (Sch 1305) does have a beaded edge between circles on both sides. I don't like the size of the beads, the height of the Roman I and least of all the C mintmark, which is pretty big and close to the monogram, but I don't have this date. Maybe you should send a picture to the Geldmuseum in Utrecht...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline andyg

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 12:25:40 AM »
well, I've not exactly lost much if it's a dud... just 99p in fact  :)
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline Oesho

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 12:45:39 PM »
This type (Sch 1305) does have a beaded edge between circles on both sides. I don't like the size of the beads, the height of the Roman I and least of all the C mintmark, which is pretty big and close to the monogram, but I don't have this date. Maybe you should send a picture to the Geldmuseum in Utrecht...

Don't do it, they may forward it to me. Better have look here and compare it with a coin of the same date.
They are not completely die-identical, but very similar. In my opinion andyg's specimen is authentic, provided the weight is around 13 g. On ZENO.RU you will find all known dates, incl. some varieties.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 10:54:36 PM by Oesho »

Offline andyg

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Re: S & T Bonk!
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 06:54:10 PM »
Thanks Oesho,

The weight is 13g according to my kitchen scales.
What caused me to post it is that I'm not too happy about the patina - I wanted to see if others thought the same. 

And at 99p I'd either been very lucky or has bought a completely obvious fake, I usually tend towards the latter -especially where ebay is concerned.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....