Author Topic: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time  (Read 540 times)

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Offline Manzikert

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More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« on: September 26, 2016, 11:16:59 PM »
Mahmud I bin Sebuktegin, fals, Ghazna 405 H, 4.22 gm, 26 mm, SNAT XIVd, 243 var; Zeno 141300 and 145558 (this coin)
Mahmud I bin Sebuktegin, fals, No mint, No date, 3.32 gm, 26 mm, not in SNAT XIVd; Zeno 145561 (this coin, the only one listed)

It is interesting that these and the contemporary Qarakhanid issues are the same size, 25-26 mm, and that the second one here has a very similar triangular arrangement to many Qarakhanid issues.

Alan

Offline THCoins

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2016, 09:26:17 AM »
Looking at the history books i think it is not so strange to see similar designs on the coins of different dynasties. For a large part the city economy was a local affair. Just once in a while the overlords, to whom tribute had to be paid, changed. For many cointypes the design is more easy to pinpoint to a specific region and era than to a specific ruler i think.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 11:16:06 AM by THCoins »

Offline Pellinore

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2016, 11:04:40 AM »
What a great design, that first coin, never seen anything like it. As for the second, I would have thought it to be Qarakhanid, naturally. What is the word in the center of the triangle?
-- Paul

Offline Manzikert

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 01:26:28 PM »
I'm afraid I don't know :( I tend to rely on Zeno for such useful things as that, but there is nothing there. and I've not found the coin elsewhere with any transcription of the legend.

Alan

Offline Pellinore

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 02:30:31 PM »
Since September 26, 2016 I was fascinated by this design and I avidly sought for copies that I could cherish myself. Here they are, the two I have. I can't see if they are also from 405 AH, or if there are differences. Pity that nr. 1 (24 mm, 2.86 gr.) is much worn and nr. 2 (24 mm, 2.54 gr.) heavily striated, WHY did these people inflict this standard damage on their finest coins... But what is written in these windmill wings?

-- Paul

Offline shiblius

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2020, 05:43:55 PM »
What a great design, that first coin, never seen anything like it. As for the second, I would have thought it to be Qarakhanid, naturally. What is the word in the center of the triangle?
-- Paul

The word in the central triangle is "Yamini".

Offline shiblius

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2020, 05:52:49 PM »
Since September 26, 2016 I was fascinated by this design and I avidly sought for copies that I could cherish myself. Here they are, the two I have. I can't see if they are also from 405 AH, or if there are differences. Pity that nr. 1 (24 mm, 2.86 gr.) is much worn and nr. 2 (24 mm, 2.54 gr.) heavily striated, WHY did these people inflict this standard damage on their finest coins... But what is written in these windmill wings?

-- Paul

On number-2: top wing: (horizontal) Lillah Yamin al-D (then continuing at angle) awlah (cannot make out the inscription in the adjacent panel)
(right wing): (lower panel) wa amin (vertical) al millah abu'l (continuing slanted text) qasim
Could not read the other text
The coin is from 405 AH. (date in left margin on the obverse (with the Shahadah)), Mint is Ghazna (top panel)

Offline THCoins

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2020, 05:57:56 PM »
The coins have similarities, but the easiest difference is that the "windmill wings" are mirror versions of each other.

Offline shiblius

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2020, 07:33:19 PM »
Inscription on the windmill pattern (starting from the read arrow)

(1) Muhammad (PBUH) (2) rasul Allah (3) Al-Qa
(4) Dir Bi- (5) llah Yamin Al-D (6) awlah
(7) wa Amin (8.) al Millah abu al-Qa (9) sim
(10) Mahmud

Offline Figleaf

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2020, 09:31:14 PM »
I am in awe, Shiblius.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2020, 09:41:06 PM »
Dear Shiblius and THCoins, thanks very much for your explanations and insights. I value these coins even more now.
-- Paul

Offline Manzikert

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2020, 11:10:38 PM »
Thank you from me as well.

I think my original coin is the same as your top one, and may even be from the same reverse die, see the rotated image below.

Alan

Offline Pellinore

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2020, 12:28:15 AM »
Thanks Manzikert, I think you are right! It must be a rare type. Rotating is a thing, too, how should the windmill be oriented, what is up and what is side or down?

Just looked this type up in SNAT XIV d. In the multitude of Mahmud coins (166) there are one-and-a-half of the windmill type (nr. 244 is a brockage).

-- Paul

Offline shiblius

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2020, 06:05:36 AM »
I think we have two varieties of the windmill types here:

Type-1: Manzikert's coin and Pellinore's coin nr-1
Type-2: Pellinore's coin nr-2

Type-2 is what is described on the catalog page (the SNAT excerpt)

Type-1: Has additional legend
a) It lists Mahmud's title of Nizam al-Din in addition to his two other titles (yamin al-dawlah and Amin al-Millah) and his kuniya (abu al-Qasim).
b) Additionally, there is a new inscription (in the top wing of the two specimens which I cannot read confidently: al malik amir fi al muayyad al mansur (super iffy, may be someone else can take a look, the text direction is the same as the arrows on the overlay for the top wing).

Offline shiblius

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Re: More intricate designs on fals, Ghazvnavid this time
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 06:07:03 AM »
I am in awe, Shiblius.

Peter

Thanks, Peter!