Author Topic: ID please - 9 shillings  (Read 2462 times)

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Offline mrbadexample

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ID please - 9 shillings
« on: June 16, 2016, 08:33:03 PM »
Evening all.

I have a strange little coin / token here:

3.6g, 17mm, brass appearance. Marked NINE SHILLs.

Both sides are the same so I've only posted one photo.

Any information appreciated as always.

Thanks.
MBE  :)

Offline bagerap

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2016, 08:56:39 PM »
Looks to be a coin weight of some kind. Probably for a European coin with an equivalent UK value of 9/-

Offline Figleaf

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 11:40:22 PM »
I cannot imagine a silver coin of 3.6 grams being worth 9 shillings. The official weight of a half sovereign (10 shillings) was 3.994 grams, so 9 shillings would be 3.5946 grams. Too close to be a coincidence, so we may presume that the official gold content of the mystery coin was also 0.917 pure with a size of slightly over 15 mm.

One coin that fits that description precisely is the Turkish 50 kurush first issued in 1861. This may well point to Cyprus, which Turkey ceded to Great Britain in 1878 AD, the equivalent of 1295 AH, or 1293, regnal year 2 in terms of coin inscriptions. That in turn points to Turkey KM 731, 50 kurus 1293/7 to 1293/26 (1883-1901).

Although Cypriot copper coins in piastres were issued from 1879, silver coins were issued only in 1901 and no gold coins were issued especially for Cyprus. Turkish silver and gold continued to circulate, causing much mischief and confusion (see this post. In addition, the Turkish coins were probably hard to interpret for Britishers posted on Cyprus. It would seem like a good solution to use weights inscribed with a value in "civilised money" to tackle both the opaque character of Turkish coins and underweight coins.

While the above fits all the facts, it remains speculation.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline malj1

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 11:53:05 PM »
See the tables here where it will be seen that both refer to the nine shillings.  I believe this refers to a Portuguese gold coin of equivalent value, probably a quarter dobra as the thirty-six shillings above it is for the Portuguese gold Dobra.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2016, 12:02:48 AM »
Thanks Mal,

As you were posting that I found this http://www.oldcoin.com.au/proclamation.htm which has one listed as a coin weight for the Portuguese 1/8 johanna.

Now if only I knew what one of those was... ;D


Offline malj1

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2016, 12:25:14 AM »
I shall try to sort some pictures from my books later.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2016, 01:16:14 AM »
Could be, but I have doubts.

The author of the page MBE links to makes mistakes, such as calling the Johannis (latinised form of Joo) Johanna. Where does he get his information from that the weight would have been used in Australia? The Johannis was also current in British Guiana, Barbados and the Windward Islands. As those territories are close to Brazil and more developed than Australia, they are likely to have seen many more Johannises than Australia, where a hodgepodge of gold circulated of which the Johannis was just one. Strictly speaking, the Johannis was the half dobra of 6400 reis, called 4 escudos in KM. This was a coin of 14.3 grams, so we are not talking about a Johannis, but about a quarter Johannis, called escudo in KM.

More important, the official weight of a quarter Johannis was 3.575 grams. This means that a weight of 3.6 grams would have found every single coin underweight, which would have made it highly impractical. The official weight of a 50 kurush is 3.608 grams. The weight would have been fair for this coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline malj1

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2016, 03:24:22 AM »
Yes its a mistake to associate Australia with the values as by proclamation all coins circulated at double face value. For instance the cartwheel penny and twopence circulated as twopence and fourpence respectively! This was in an endeavour to keep coins in the colony as each ship departing would take the coins with them.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline malj1

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 03:51:22 AM »
In the Numismatist for Sept. 1978 there is an article English Coin Weights for Portuguese Coins Current in England by A. George Mallis this shows all but the nine shillings, jumping from four shillings and 6d for the half escudo to the eighteen shillings for the two escudos.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline mrbadexample

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 09:12:46 AM »

More important, the official weight of a quarter Johannis was 3.575 grams. This means that a weight of 3.6 grams would have found every single coin underweight, which would have made it highly impractical. The official weight of a 50 kurush is 3.608 grams. The weight would have been fair for this coin.

Peter

Unfortunately Peter my scales only measure down to 0.1g so it could be 3.575g.  :-\

Offline Manzikert

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 09:40:35 AM »
This weight is 18th century so couldn't be for the Turkish coin anyway. It is definitely for the Portuguese piece, and there is a whole sequence of 36/-, 18/-, 9/- for the unit and fractions (I have an 18/- somewhere which I'll try and dig out).

Alan

Offline malj1

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Re: ID please - 9 shillings
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 01:27:57 PM »
Here are two weights for the Portuguese coins.

Josephus I D.G.PORT.REX Thirty six shillings 14.1g signed Kirk [of St Pauls Churchyard London]

Half Moidor W 5.4g  Rev: Maltese cross
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.