Which variant II

Started by Figleaf, April 11, 2016, 02:18:30 PM

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Figleaf

A half anna 1862, KM 468. Reverse II, but too worn for me to establish the obverse variant and mint. I have included a close-up of the dress, hoping that a specialist recognises the type.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

cmerc

Snapshots from Pridmore. This should help, but you would need to measure the diameter.
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

Globetrotter

I would think it' a reverse 2, see attached document from a 1/4 anna......

Ole

Figleaf

Ole is right that the only die combinations for this type are A I and B II. KM says reverse type I has a slanted top 1 in the date, while reverse type II has a flat top I. Since mine has a slant top, the reverse must be I, therefore the obverse must be A. Pridmore helps to establish that my specimen was minted in Bombay, since it is slightly below 30.6 mm. That info is again not in KM (7th edition)

Thanks, gentlemen!

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

cmerc

Globetrotter (Ole) posted the varieties for 1/4 Anna, but you have posted a 1/2 Anna. I don't know if the obverse varieties can be generalized across denominations (they may very well be).
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

Figleaf

I did check in KM, but that doesn't mean the same is true for other denominations.

As you may have noticed, I am going through the British Indian coins in my inheritance. I wanted to make sure I got them right to the last detail. It was fun checking them out, but I wondered what the use of a frozen date is if you're going to date them with all kinds of funny marks anyway. Even as a former bureaucrat, I don't understand it. Maybe reading the Times in the Indian sun affects the brain?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

cmerc

The silver coins had frozen dates to subvert the shroffs and the batta system. For example, Presidency issues with frozen RY-19, dates 1172-6, 1835, 1840/41, etc. The shroffs (money changers) would levy a heavy discount on older-dated coins, regardless of the conditions, as the taxes had to be paid in current (new) coins. Thus, there was an arbitrary tax imposed on older coins by the shroffs.

The British introduced the system of frozen dates so that old and new coins could not be distinguished, and the shroffs' unfair influence on currency exchanges was undermined. This system was discontinued after 1874, presumably because the establishment of the shroffs was thoroughly disrupted by this time after ~50 years of frozen dates on coins.

Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

Figleaf

That looks like a very good explanation, cmerc. However, I am reminded of German commemoratives that didn't have the traditional mint letters, but secret marks. The secret was discovered in a very short time and spread through the internet. Granted, the shroffs probably didn't have internet ;), but they did have tea houses to share gossip and stories. Thanks to your story, it's no longer the frozen date that make no sense, but the secret marks and in particular those that serve to distinguish mint houses...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

cmerc

This info is actually found in a large number of documents, and modern scholarly works. My sources are Pridmore's text and a JONS article from about a year ago that I can't remember now.
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

Figleaf

That's not the problem, cmerc. The story is good. I was just smiling at the naiveté of the officials in view of later events. Of course, the shroff business went off the cliff and that seems evidence that the secret marks worked as intended, but I wonder if modern banks and other financial institutions didn't have a larger effect than official policy.

As an official, it was my everyday business to describe things that would have happened anyway as the glorious success of the present minister's policies :) This is known among some officials as the elephant and mouse effect: an elephant (the economy) crashes through the country, unrooting trees, burying plants, leaving huge footsteps. On its back runs a tiny mouse (officialdom), squeaking with pleasure: "aren't we having a great time?" Alas, its voice is too small for the elephant to notice. :D

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

cmerc

That is indeed an interesting job, you must have had an very eventful career with many such "mice"!

Interestingly, the privy marks on the earlier Presidency issues only indicated the mint. The date was completely unknown. The dates were encoded using the dots privy marks on the 1862 rupees and thereafter. At this point, presumably the shroffs had already waned, or probably taxes were paid directly to the government, rather than through local "outsourced contractors".
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.