New Lawsuit Demands Removal of 'In God We Trust' from US Money

Started by Bimat, January 17, 2016, 07:27:24 AM

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Bimat

Lawsuit demands US remove 'In God We Trust' from money

Jan 16, 2016

By FoxNews.com

A new lawsuit filed on behalf of several Atheist plaintiffs argues the phrase "In God We Trust" on U.S. money is unconstitutional, and calls for the government to get rid of it.

Sacramento attorney Michael Newdow filed the lawsuit Monday in Akron, Ohio. He'd unsuccessfully sued the government at least twice challenging the use of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Throughout much of his lawsuit, the word appears as "G-d."

Source
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.

FosseWay

The "under God" bit was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s IIRC, at a time when the principal enemy of the US was explicitly atheist. "In God we trust" first appeared on the coins after the Civil War. Neither phrase has anything to do with the founding fathers of the US, the reasons why the 13 Colonies fought for independence or the promulgation of the world's first reasonably fair and inclusive constitution.

Personally (speaking as a non-militant atheist) I don't have a problem with "In God we trust" on the money. It doesn't bother me if a country says it collectively trusts in God; likewise I don't have a problem with the fact that the head of state of my own country is also head of the church there. In both cases, people to whom it doesn't apply can simply ignore it.

I have stronger feelings about the addition to the Pledge of Allegiance. This is an individual pledge, and including "under God" implies two things, both of which are inimical to the whole point of the US as set down in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Firstly, because the Pledge is an individual commitment to the country, it implies that those people who for varying reasons cannot or do not want to submit themselves to God are unable to give the Pledge with true conviction. Taken to an extreme interpretation you could argue that someone who is not willing to give the Pledge fully is unworthy of being a US citizen, at least in spirit though not in law. This is discriminatory and wrong in itself, IMO, but is doubly wrong because of the US's specific constitutional safeguards relating to separation of church and state.

Secondly, "one nation under God" can be interpreted to mean that the US only has to answer for its actions to God, not to the rest of humanity or to other countries or organisations like the UN. And in such circumstances, "God's will" would be whatever the President or Congress determined it to be. I'm not suggesting that American governments have a tendency to say this, but that it is a possible interpretation, and one that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find being supported by elements of the religious right in the US. "Because God tells us to" has already led to the Israel-Palestine conflict, 9/11, Paris, Syrian refugees and so on; we don't need any more of it, especially not from the world's leading power.

Afrasi

I "(speaking as a non-militant" christ  ;)) can share your thought fully.

kena

So I guess the Netherlands should remove God zij met ons from their coins as well.....

I do not understand why such strong feelings regarding Pledge of Allegiance, when most of you here will never have to say it.

Some of the other comments about the United States of America reminds me of the saying, "Three men make a tiger".

There are at least two hints about what the found fathers believed from the Constitution:

Article I - If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted)
Article VII - in the year of lord

Washington's Thanksgiving Proclamation in 1789 - http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/GW/gw004.html

Ken

onecenter

Quote from: Bimat on January 17, 2016, 07:27:24 AM
Lawsuit demands US remove 'In God We Trust' from money

Jan 16, 2016

By FoxNews.com

A new lawsuit filed on behalf of several Atheist plaintiffs argues the phrase "In God We Trust" on U.S. money is unconstitutional, and calls for the government to get rid of it.

Sacramento attorney Michael Newdow filed the lawsuit Monday in Akron, Ohio. He'd unsuccessfully sued the government at least twice challenging the use of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Throughout much of his lawsuit, the word appears as "G-d."

Source
The plaintiff is a "professional" atheist who sues over the motto "In God We Trust" periodically, the media make a big circus out of it and then drops off the radar.
Mark

Figleaf

I am sure this is just another iteration in a fruitless political cycle. However, that's not relevant from the coin point of view. Every society needs a few cantankerous, odd or just difficult characters. At a minimum, they keep the rest honest, at a maximum they are the next Steve Jobs. Problem being that you can't predict who will be the next Steve Jobs and who will just be a pain.

From a coin point of view, the question is rather "do US coins adequately reflect US values and if not, what does that mean?" In general, coins are not bad at all at reflecting national values, whether it is by harking back to Victorian times on UK coins, by starchy conservatism on Swiss coins or by showing czarist heraldry on Russian coins. So how about "In God We Trust" on US coins?

Politicians would tell you religion is very important, but they have their own agenda and lack credibility. Statistics say that the largest denominations in the US are Protestant (46.5%), Unaffiliated (22.8%) and Catholic (20.8%) - source. What does the slogan represent? Christianity or Protestantism? You can probably argue both ways, but my gut feeling is that it represents Protestantism. The slogan is passive (god has a role, people don't) and strongly reminiscent of predestination, which is typically a Protestant tenet.

If you argue that te slogan is Protestant, it represents 46.5% of the population. A minority, but the rest is highly divided. Democracy is of course not the will of the majority but the art of compromise. An obvious compromise would be to make clear that the word "god" in the slogan refers to all gods out there. That would make it a large majority slogan in one blow. It would also be politically impossible. Draw your own conclusions.

If you argue that it is Christian, you end up with a 70.6% coverage (46.5+20.8+1.6+1.7). In other words, it disenfranchises almost 1 in 3 Americans. Moreover, the statistics reflect what respondents say, not what they do. Many of those calling themselves Christian will in reality be non-practising. It is hard to argue that the slogan is an American value in the sense of a widely shared cultural attitude.

So what if it isn't? We have little experience with that situation. The best I can think of is colonial coinage, which had a tendency over time to reflect more and more the mother country, not the colonies they circulated in. Decolonisation was certainly not a result of having the wrong coins, but the wrong coins were a sign of things going on below the surface that made it clear that the current situation was untenable. Again, draw your own conclusions.

So, is it the business of foreigners? It certainly looks that way. Aren't diplomatic relations, special exhibitions and events on other countries and even international sport festivals about influencing other countries according to our own approach? On top of that, the US looms large in the international affairs of other countries. What the US does will influence their domestic elections, their external security, their economy and finance and possibly even their medical situation. For that reason alone, others have a right to discuss what goes on there.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

onecenter

The motto "In God We Trust" stemmed from the political churches movement of American politics of the late 1840s and 1850s and the Civil War of 1861-1865.  First inscribed into the obverse of the two-cent bronze coin of 1864-1873, the motto "In God Our Trust" came  from low-denomination cent-like tokens that circulated after the disappearance of most coins from circulation due to the Civil War creating economic uncertainty North and South.
Mark

FosseWay

Quote from: kena on January 17, 2016, 10:31:00 PM
So I guess the Netherlands should remove God zij met ons from their coins as well.....

Not according to anything any contributor to this thread has said, including me. Vague statements of national identity are just that, whether religious or otherwise, and any given citizen can taken them or leave them. As I said, the presence of "In God we trust" on US coins doesn't bother me in the slightest, and neither does "God zij met ons" or "Fidei Defensor" on Dutch or UK coins.

QuoteI do not understand why such strong feelings regarding Pledge of Allegiance, when most of you here will never have to say it.

That is the beauty of democracy. Everyone has a right to an opinion, even about things that don't directly affect them and about which they potentially know little. In any case I dispute that I expressed "strong feelings"; I simply noted that for the reasons stated, my feelings about the Pledge of Allegiance were stronger than those about "In God we trust".

QuoteSome of the other comments about the United States of America reminds me of the saying, "Three men make a tiger".

You've lost me there, I'm afraid. But I'm aware that you were unhappy with what I posted, regarding it as denigrating the US in some way. I am sorry for any unintentional offence caused, but respectfully suggest you read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. My beef was with the infiltration of organised religion into the workings of the state, which AFAIK is contrary to the US Constitution, and with the emphasis on one particular religion, which ditto. If you read carefully you will see that I referred positively to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the founders' aims for the country, the constutional separation of power and religion, and the justness of the Revolution. Anti-American? Really?


quaziright

Very interesting Proverb Three men make a tiger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger

Sometimes I think the line between expressing an opinion and just plain arm chair lamenting is very blurred most of the time :)

Prosit

My personal impression of the public here in the USA is that the majority of citizens don't know the inscription is on their coins and don't care what is on them as long as they spend.

From a design point of view (mine) I think there are too many mandated inscriptions for US coins and that certainly restricts the designers more than necessary.

From a personal point of view I would keep it on the coins for various reasons.

But they really need to drop that "E pluribus unum"  That is just going too far.  >:D

Dale

Bimat

Is this true? If yes, they could bring it back?!? ;)

Aditya
It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. -J. K. Rowling.

Figleaf

It's a quarter truth. There is a rare piece, the continental dollar, of 1776 with that slogan. It may have been not more than a proposal for a design. As such, it seems too cluttered and detailed for the technology of those days. It works on a dollar, but it would have been difficult to use and see on small change, even more so without a pantograph.

According to the "red book", the oldest series of coins for the US are the 1783 Nova Constellatio coins. Of course, coins were struck for and in (the NE coins of 1652) North America before the US was invented, not even counting wampum.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.