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Author Topic: Petition on collecting in Germany  (Read 1323 times)

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Offline EWC

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Petition on collecting in Germany
« on: July 30, 2015, 11:24:14 AM »
Am a little surprised nobody here has mentioned recent developements in Germany

Here is a petition - anyone can sign, not just German citizens - I already signed it, and I urge others to do the same

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns

I am sure others know more than I about the specific German proposals - and I would be interested to hear more

Offline Bimat

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Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2015, 11:27:29 AM »
I saw this petition just an hour ago on one of the German seller's eBay store..The link provided is not very clear to me, can someone explain in short what exactly it is about? How does it affect non German collectors?

Aditya
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2015, 12:43:29 PM »
The problem is a law in the pipeline that would make it obligatory immediately for old items (even cheap ones, like coins) to show 20 years back of sales records on sale. In other words, in order to sell an old coin under German law, it would become necessary to show who you bought it from and when, up to 20 years back.

The petition is drafted by Ursula Kampmann, who is a serious author on classical coins.

Yes, cultural heritage needs protecting and no, not everything old is cultural heritage. My impression is that the wild-eyed faction of archeologists has succeeded in shooting themselves in both feet. It might actually be helpful if the law goes through, as it would rob these self-appointed anti-collector terrorists of their undeserved credibility. If the law is stopped by actions such as this petition it's OK also, I guess. The main thing is to show that this kind of flagrant fanaticism does harm, not good, so it won't spread to other countries (dare I mention India?)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline EWC

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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2015, 01:35:38 PM »
The main thing is to show that this kind of flagrant fanaticism does harm, not good, so it won't spread to other countries (dare I mention India?)
 

Thanks Peter – I agree.  I would add a further point.  The trend of things is towards a professionalisation of all culture. 

Academia is more and more funded by big business - regarding numismatics – by banks in particular, who inevitably have commercial viewpoints.  Meanwhile senior UK academic coin people my age (eg Mark Blackburn, Joe Cribb) who saw the importance of engaging with the amateur community, (and put a lot of effort into it) are retiring or even dying now.  The commitment to amateurs is waning in the UK.  Amateur criticism was a vital sheet anchor against commercial bias in academia.  Without it, the lines between scholarship and propaganda are already blurring.

Yes - the fanatics do have global aspirations, and a domino effect spreading to India is certainly on their agenda.  Thus far though the chief inroads seem to be the USA, traditionally seen as the home of individualism, but perhaps in this case proving rather to be the home of big business?

Older members in India may recall some of the things that happened to collecting in India during Mrs Gandhi’s emergency?  Hopefully that memory will strengthen resolve against such moves.

Offline capnbirdseye

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New German Legislation to Threaten Collectors
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 02:11:54 PM »
I got this email today from Baldwins.

Important Message for all Numismatists

A new amendment to the German Cultural property and Heritage Protection Law looks set to have extremely negative repercussions for collectors worldwide.

The proposed changes to the law, put forward by German Minister of Culture Monika Grütters, will affect anyone specialising in traditional collecting fields, such as coins, stamps and books.

What does this mean?

In basic terms, it means that any owner of what is deemed 'cultural goods' with a value of 2,500 Euros will now have to provide absolute proof of the the item's provenance for the previous 20 years.
In the case of items that are deemed 'of archaeological value', the same is true to the value of just 100 Euros.

I don't trade in Germany, why should I care?

Collectors all over the world need to take notice of this proposal. If it passes, it means that it will severely restrict trade in Germany, which will inevitably have a detrimental effect on prices and values across the entire market.

Law is law, what can I do?

This is one of those rare occasions where the voice of those directly affected can make a difference. The proposed amendment openly calls for 'comment and contribution', meaning that it is not yet set in stone and we can have an influence on the amendment's future.

So, what do we do?

A petition has been created which you can sign by following this link.  (http://www.baldwin.co.uk/petition)
At A H Baldwin & Sons we are actively encouraging our valued customers and friends to sign, so that we can continue to preserve the traditions and time-honoured culture of not just numismatics but collecting in all its guises.

As always, we continue to appreciate your support.
Vic

Offline malj1

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Re: New German Legislation to Threaten Collectors
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2015, 03:08:37 PM »
I also received a similar email a few days ago.

Quote:
Not sure if you have already seen this directly via the Coins Weekly page, but just in case - feel free to share as you see fit:

I don't normally plug online petitions but this is one I would like to see collectors in our corner of the world [Australia] take an interest in. It's about new proposed legislation in Germany that seems to combine the principles of NZ's Antiquities and Second-Hand Dealers' Acts but is rather more draconian, insisting that owners have 20 years' documented provenance of any collectible worth more than €2,500 and any "antiquity" worth more than €100. That and other provisions would make trading in relatively common ancient numismatic items onerous and their cross-border trade very difficult, if I am reading this correctly. The person behind the petition is Dr Ursula Kampmann, who produces a weekly (English-language) roundup of coin news - she has been a strong opponent of the draft bill and highlighted the fact that interested parties were left out of the early stages of the discussion - not a good look. While it mainly affects Germany and the EU now, its effects could become much wider, especially for those who trade with collectors or dealers in those countries. Since it relates to collectables, it goes beyond coins, too - paintings, even cars could be covered.
Signatures from outside the EU are encouraged, to show how widespread concerns are:

http://tinyurl.com/collectors-petition
Malcolm
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Offline Bimat

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Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2015, 10:19:15 AM »
40,460 supporters for the petition so far, they are targeting 120,000. Considering that only 22 days are left for signing the e-petition, it's difficult to achieve the target...

Aditya
Caution. The low-hanging fruits are still there maybe for a reason.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 05:59:46 PM »
I signed.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline constanius

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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 07:32:05 PM »
Ditto.

Pat

Pat

Offline Bimat

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Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2015, 04:07:22 AM »
Me too. :)

Aditya
Caution. The low-hanging fruits are still there maybe for a reason.

Offline Bimat

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Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 02:21:20 PM »
This is strange! The petition now has 153 days remaining! If they keep increasing the duration for signing the petition like that, it will never reach the concerned official. :( 42,905 supporters till now, still far away from a target of 120,000 for quorum...

Aditya
Caution. The low-hanging fruits are still there maybe for a reason.

Offline Bimat

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Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 07:06:25 AM »
Any updates on this?

Aditya
Caution. The low-hanging fruits are still there maybe for a reason.

Offline chrisild

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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 01:50:07 PM »
Well, if you signed the petition, you should have received an update notification in March :) with a link to this page:
https://www.openpetition.de/petition/blog/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns
(The first part of the text is in German, followed by the English version.)

Christian

Offline EWC

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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 02:28:18 PM »
Thanks.  I signed - but never got this.

If you will excuse a bit of intellectual flamboyance on my part (its Friday and I am off duty) - it seems to me modern academia is somehow following in the tracks of the medieval church on this matter.

Back then, the past was controlled and understood by the church in connection with the ownership of a small number of artefacts - holy relics.

Modern professional archaeology extends that reach - controlling the understanding of the past - by claiming the ownership of all old artefacts. 

In the UK, PAS just announced its annual talk meet.  Apparently - no critics were invited to speak

Rob T


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Re: Petition on collecting in Germany
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 03:47:41 PM »
Had also signed and have not received this.  >:(