Author Topic: (F)utility of grading  (Read 4468 times)

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Offline PeaceBD

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 09:20:01 PM »
Surely, you do not mean a coin is never mis-graded and is certain to be correctly graded by a TPG, Bushan? I have very often heard of coins that were over-graded. Stories of under-graded coins are virtually non-existent. There is a statistical message here, even accounting for buyer vanity. A photo will answer the more relevant question: do I like the way the coin looks? If so, it doesn't matter if it is VF or EF.

Your point is well taken, though. Photos do not cover the edge. In my experience, auctioneers normally offer an opportunity to prospective buyers to inspect the coin. For that sort of an amount, I would not buy anything at all sight unseen. However, in extreme circumstances (e. g. you being too far away to visit and bidding by mail) I would expect a reputable auction house to take the coin back when you discover significant un-described damage. They would not take it back if they, or a TPG graded the coin at EF and you think it's VF.

Peter

Peter, my point here has been entirely misunderstood. I have never claimed that the TPGs do a great job of grading coins and they are flawless in their work. My opinion is actually completely opposite. Grading standards of TPGs change over a period of time driven by the market demand , work load and who knows what. Heck even the normal grading standards have changed over the period of last hundred years. My position has always been that a collector should be knowledgeable enough to make his own decision. At the end of the day he is the one shelling out the bucks.
Now do the TPGs do a decent job of identifying problem coins or fakes? I do believe they do a relatively decent job. Atleast the top tier ones like NGC and PCGS. Are they absolutely correct on all occasions ? Certainly not. I have seen examples of misidentified and misjudged coins from both the reputed TPGs.

You are correct in saying that something that expensive should never be bought without inspecting the coin in person. Again the label on that slab could say anything but its up to the collector to decide if he likes how the coin looks and if it has a place in his collection.


Offline EWC

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2015, 09:00:19 AM »
1.  The different grading systems we know are by definition subjective.

I deplore this illicit (post-modern)  extension of subjectivity into of areas of life where it has no reason to be.  Many Greeks who thought owing money was a subjective matter might soon find otherwise.  In its own little way, falsely making coin grading “subjective” is part of this same pomo trend of manufacturing compliant consumers.

If they were objective, grading would have been done by computer by now

Nope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_sexing

Even the chickens know that sex difference is not a subjective matter

2.  The different grading systems we know were designed for machine-struck coins at best.

False.  Look at any price catalogue of premodern coins

3  Grading systems are useless in an age where you can send a picture of a coin all over the world in seconds.

Grading a coin takes maybe one second.  Creating an image maybe 100 seconds. .  Not significant regarding expensive pieces of course, but enormously significant for cheap coins – since your conclusion values the sellers time at zero!  The results of that are to be seen all around……..

Offline Figleaf

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2015, 01:05:18 PM »
Oh lala. So much to say, so little time. Please beware of hardening of the categories :) and do not use "illicit" illicitly. People have the right to disagree with you, as I am sure you will agree.

The great big important cost of TPGs is not grading. It is staffing. Even the equipment used does not measure up to staffing cost. This means that to remain "competitive", the TPGs need turnover and anal retentiveness when it comes to salary cost. If anyone would offer them a semblance of software that could grade say within 5 points and save significant grading time, they would jump on it hand and feet. If you believe for your own reasons that grading is objective, you will have difficulty to explain why there is no software to do it. If grading could be captured in algorithms, it would have happened already. You might also have problems with the fact that mints still use humans for quality control.

Graders make only one judgement for one party, according to their taste and the whole grading cycle is a matter of several days, while potential buyers can all be sent a picture in real time at no marginal cost and to be interpreted by the buyer's standards. Compare the statistical fact that equity has a tendency to move up on Fridays and down on Mondays, which can only be explained by the concept of weekend, which should not have an influence on equity prices. I would not be surprised if coins would be graded higher on a Friday than on a Monday. It would be human. The comparison with chick sexing is of course wrong, as that is a case of firm data that is just hard to spot, rather than data overflow, a large noise/data ratio and a state of mind.

I can think of many catalogues without prices (and prefer them, with the exception of KM). If some people do something futile, that doesn't make it useful.

Actually, I think Bushan's point of view is entirely reasonable: get as much information as you can and make up your mind. That doesn't mean you have to make up your mind in terms of VF or EF. I think Prosit's 2-grade coin grading system is sufficient and to the point.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2015, 01:16:01 PM »
If you think owing money is objective, think of the beggar owing €5 and the millionaire owing €5. Think of a DM 1 million loan concluded in 1914 and due for repayment in 1921 or of a Jew, claiming his inheritance from a Swiss bank and the teller asking him "do you have a death certificate from the authorities in Auschwitz?" or the thieves who stole my coin collection and, according to a French judge, owe me a very large amount of money in damages that I shall never see.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2015, 09:47:41 AM »
Quote
Objective reality is a delirum caused by lack of alcohol in the blood.

Offline EWC

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2015, 10:08:23 AM »
Objective reality is a delirum caused by lack of alcohol in the blood.

'Always cite your references, and never miss an opportunity to empty your bladder'

(attr: Wellington)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2015, 08:18:18 PM »
As a former meeting tiger, I can vouch for the truth of the bladder part.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline cmerc

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2015, 04:11:25 AM »
Out of interest, cmerc, I have seen many beautiful ancient Indian pieces from your collection and I think highly of your knowledge of these coins. Do you have pictures of the coins not on WoC? If you had pictures of all your coins, it would have some advantages:
  • No need to grade. Pictures speak for themselves.
  • Immediate basic reference. Less need to take them out of bank vault or other hiding place.
  • Ability to study coins you have sold.
  • Ability to study detail by zooming in on picture.
  • Insurance against bad eyesight at later age.
  • Evidence for judges and help for police in case collection is stolen.
Peter

Hi Peter and others! I completely agree that a picture is worth a thousand words! However, I have an excel sheet that does not have pictures. (Although there are ways of embedding pics/links, keeping up with cataloging is challenging.) I usually note the grades in the excel sheet with some notes (test marks, etc.). I don't have all pics of all coins I have bought (and remaining/recovered after the robbery).

A good, fast, and easy-to-use collection organization management website is certainly lacking. So I decided to develop one myself. I plan on making it open and free for everyone. (More to follow later!)

Regarding TPG, I think WoC members will have to agree to disagree. I belong to the anti-TPG camp, but I fully respect the other side's way of thinking.
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2015, 07:28:12 AM »
Can you find the command Insert:Hyperlink in Excel? If you store your pictures online, you can use this command to jump to the picture. You can use this technique also to connect a cell in an Excel data base to e.g. a thread in WoC.

Alternatively, you can use Insert:Picture:From File... to show pictures on your hard disk (more risky, you need a back-up). In that case, I would recommend you create thumbnails that can be clicked on to see the high-res picture. Otherwise your sheet may become too slow.

It's not necessary to do everything at the same time of course. Start with the pictures you already have, add the most expensive coins. That way, with 30% of the lines having a picture, you will probably cover 70% of your needs.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline cmerc

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2015, 01:53:39 PM »
Although many of us prefer to use this method, i.e., embedding hyperlinks, it is rather inelegant. In this matter I find myself agreeing with EWC: storing/linking photos this way takes 100 secs whereas simple grading will take 5 seconds. But I do store pics of the more expensive or rare coins, as you have described.

This is a great discussion! Coin collecting is like a religion to us; unfortunately all religions don't always get along...  ;D
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: (F)utility of grading
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2015, 05:45:07 PM »
This is a great discussion! Coin collecting is like a religion to us; unfortunately all religions don't always get along...

That pleases me no end, cmerc. If we can't do better than religious leaders we should be ashamed of ourselves. I agree we are doing better. We don't win or lose arguments, we compare points of view and learn from both sides. We're not in camps, thrive on open mindedness and we are genuinely having fun thinking beyond our comfort zones. Thanks to all who participate in what is indeed an edifying thread.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.