Author Topic: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas  (Read 2010 times)

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Offline asm

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Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« on: May 11, 2015, 02:29:03 PM »
A topic that regularly keeps getting discussed........ but here is proof. These are not recent fabrications but are apparently made to be silver plaited and passed off as Silver coins. Silver traces are still seen on all coins.

Top: Mewar Rupee
Middle: Datia Rupee
Bottom: Malwa Tanka

Amit
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 04:32:08 PM by Quant.Geek »
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 03:34:37 PM »
I would consider these worthy of a coin collection. They were made to deceive, of course, but they circulated and served as money.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline asm

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2015, 03:13:53 AM »
I would consider these worthy of a coin collection. They were made to deceive, of course, but they circulated and served as money.
I have been picking up such pieces as and when I come across them. As you mention, these did serve as money and are in most cases very difficult to find.

Amit
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 10:45:37 AM by Figleaf »
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Offline asm

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2015, 03:16:49 AM »
A nice story on this topic by Admiral Sohail Khan:


Amit, I regret to report that Datia area has been notorious for long time. I am posting a copy of what I reported years back. You will love it.

Thu Nov 2, 2006 10:10PM (ET)

Silver Plated Coins

I have great pleasure in adding a bit of spice to the topic of "Silver Plating/coating of Coins".

I quote literatum verbatim from a book "RAMBLES AND RECOLLECTIONS OF AN INDIAN OFFICIAL" by Major-General Sir W. H. SLEEMAN, K.C. B.; with revised annotated edition (i.e. carrying notes by the famous history author Vincent A. Smith), published by Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1915. [the original was published in 1856.....I deduce from initial pages].

I quote from page 257 --explanatory remarks in bracket are mine:

"During my visit to the Raja (of Datiya), a person in the disguise of one of my sipahis (soldier) went to a shop and purchased for me 'five-and-twenty rupees' worth of fine European chintz, for which he paid in good rupees, which were forthwith assayed by a neighbouring goldsmith. The sipahi put these rupees into his own purse, and laid it down, saying that he should go and ascertain from me (Gen. Sleeman) whether I wished to keep the whole of chintz or not; and, if not, he (the soldier) should require back the same money --that I (Gen. Sleeman) was to halt to-morrow, when he (soldier) would return to the shop again. Just as he was going away, however, he (soldier) recollected that he wanted a turban for himself, and requested the shopkeeper to bring him one. They were sitting in the verandah, and the shopkeeper had to go into his shop to bring out the turban. When he came out with it, the sipahi said it would not suit his purpose, and went off, leaving the purse where it lay, cautioning the shopkeeper against changing any of the rupees, as he should require his own identical money back if his master rejected any of the chintz. The shopkeeper waited till four o'clock in the afternoon of the next day without looking into the purse.

Hearing then that I (Gen. Sleeman) had left Datiya, and seeing no signs of the sipahi, he opened the purse, and found that the repees were all copper, with a thin coating of silver. The man (soldier) had changed them while he (shopkeeper) went into the shop for a turban, and substituted a purse exactly the same inappearance. After ascertaining that the story was true, and that the ingenious thief was not one of my followers, I insisted upon the man's (shopkeeper) taking the money from me."

Lesson learnt: Silver coating, thin layers deposied by various means, or even cladding with thicker layers, was probably very common. I think that the TAWEEZ and jewelry for remote village people was largely made up of this type of coins, which were discarded after decades of use, when the copper did come out. Not many have therefore survived. I have a rare (should I say unique.......) silver clad Tanka of Nasirudin Mahmud Shah II, the later Tughlaq, (Rajgor 1440) with thick silver cladding (not plating) in which copper is visible at a split in the rim.

The interesting stories of Gen. Sleeman's book will not be complete without citing a note at bottom of page 265 by V.A. Smith , regarding the bad governance of Gawalior state and the good governance of the British Indian government. He says in the foot note:

"The government of Gawalior has improved since the author (Gen. Sleeman) wrote. Many reforms have been begun and more or less fully executed. In May, 1887, the vast hoard of rupees buried in the pits in the fort, valued at five million sterling [even in those days amounting to 50,000,000 rupees), was exhumed, and lent to the Government of India to be usefully employed.

I could not find anywhere if the loaned 5 crore (50 million) rupees were ever given back to Gawalior. In todays rupees , in those days it was worth 5000,000,000 rupees. How honest were the servants of the Raj in their efforts to bring reformation to Gawalior.

Sincerely

Admiral Sohail Khan


Amit
"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2015, 10:50:11 AM »
In fraudsterland, this trick is called a switch. It is a basic technique that has very sophisticated variants. One highly unsophisticated variant was reported by our local police office the other day. A young (but apparently not particularly brilliant) man had switched the license plates of his run-down Mercedes with those of a new Mercedes of the same colour and stolen the new car. He must have been surprised how easily they caught him. :D

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline MORGENSTERNN

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 01:31:35 AM »
Maler Kotla Rupee Ahmad Ali Khan (1908-1947) KM ?

Genuine (on the left) : weight 10.72g diameter 17mm
Debased imitation : weight 9.69g diameter 16mm
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 01:29:17 PM by MORGENSTERNN »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 07:19:36 AM »
Nice illustration of why a real coin collector must have electronic scales.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline MORGENSTERNN

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2018, 01:24:14 PM »
More pictures of the Maler Kotla Rupees Y-9 authentic and debased

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2018, 05:26:49 PM »
Fun post, MORGENSTERNN. What gave them away as fakes? Colour? Weight?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline MORGENSTERNN

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2018, 07:16:00 PM »
Fun post, MORGENSTERNN. What gave them away as fakes? Colour? Weight?

Peter

Those are the same coins as posted on reply#5 of this topic (but better definition pictures)
So only one is a fake because of weight (9.69g debased VS 10.72 authentic)


Offline Manzikert

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2018, 11:08:07 PM »
I can't remember if I have posted this one before, but this seems an appropriate place for it.

It is a rupee of Sher Shah Suri, fairly good weight and diameter, 10.86 gm, 26 mm, but the entire inscriptions are mirror image as well as being very crude.

Alan

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 09:01:30 AM »
Interesting piece, Alan. Mirror image coins are indeed an easy way to recognise a fake, as inexperienced but literate engravers will reflexively forget to engrave in mirror image to produce a correct-looking fake. However, if the entire piece is in mirror image on both sides, an even more interesting possibility opens up. This could be a fraudsters mother coin, used to make impressions in a clay mould for cast forgeries. That would make the test marks "pre-programmed" and we know indeed that fakes had those. It makes sense, because when the coins are silvered over, the bottom of the test marks will be silvered also.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 09:35:32 AM »
But surely anything cast from a mould made from this piece would be in mirror image too.

The only way I can think of 'flipping' the image is digitally, see below, when the style improves a little.

Alan

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 10:35:10 AM »
That is a strange coin, it doesn't look cast to me although the edge would give more clues if there is a join or file marks visible, as you already mentioned it's very crudely engraved and the date visible at the bottom left of the square appears to be something like 947?  the 9 is clear, what appears to be a 1 is I think part of the 4 where the engraver got even more confused  :o
Vic

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Contemporary fakes of Indian Rupees and Tankas
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 12:33:22 PM »
It is definitely struck not cast, and the usual date for these is 948 I believe.

Presumably when he was engraving the die the inscription would be the normal way round, so there was no real reason for him to have made a mistake :)

Alan