Author Topic: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint  (Read 4281 times)

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Offline THCoins

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I did not acquire many coins lately, but this was an opportunity i could not let pass by. Normally i don't show any coins here before i have them in my hands. But that may take some weeks. So here just a snapshot of the sellers pics. I will add to this thread when i receive them, because only then i will know for sure if they are what i think they are. They were sold without attribution. If i am correct, one is rare, the other very rare. Possibly, some of the experts here may already recognize them, so let's hear your attributions:
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 01:49:53 PM by THCoins »

Online EWC

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2015, 09:37:54 AM »
Both equally good finds I would say.  And makes it pretty clear why one would feel they both probly came from the same mint - whether or not that is some obscure ruin in the Salt Range.

Ooops - hope that is not too many clues........

Offline THCoins

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2015, 01:24:31 PM »
Figured you should recognize them Rob !
Agree on the characteristic mint style in the design. I may one day make a thread with all the consecutive B&H issues from this mint over time. Would give a nice illustration of the political tumoil in this area at the time.
As for rarity, Goron gives the left as only scarce. But for both it was the first time i saw one for sale within my price range.
(Both are featured in Jitals and G&G. Neither is found on Zeno or other web references)

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 02:07:13 PM »
Luvely thread, but will you tell us under-equipped-bookwise dumbos what this is all about?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Md. Shariful Islam

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 02:44:37 PM »
Is this thread dedicated to experts only? Not for me!!!

Online EWC

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 03:14:08 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandana

Puzzling that Stan called the Iltutmish coin "scarce" - even when he failed to find a single example to photograph.

His drawing looks oddly familiar somehow  ???

Also thanks to Ton and Peter for comments on the Bengal famine token thing.  One travels in hope.

Offline THCoins

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 03:20:12 PM »
Quote
Is this thread dedicated to experts only? Not for me!!!

No this thread is intended for everyone. You even have an advantage over others because you can read Bengali script !
What this thread is all about is that there are various quite easily recognisable classes of Bull and Horseman Jitals. In each class you may encounter both very common and very rare types. Recognizing the class is not so difficult. It is usually based more on the stylistic characteristics than on the text. Recognizing the very rare types from the common types is what takes some practice, and is generally based on the text inscriptions.
Both of the above coins belong to the issues of a single mint. As Rob already stated, Nandana in Sindh. This is mainly reflected in the very similar design of the bull. However in a short time frame the area in which this mint was located was governed by at least 5 different rulers. But the mint just kept issuing the same basic design. Just with a different issue authority. Three issues are common to very common, and can also be found on this board. Two issues are rare to very rare, one just has to recognize them  ;D

I will provide better photo's with explanatory text overlay when i receive them.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 05:30:23 PM »
I thought the secret service was disbanded after the war  ;D ;D ;D
Vic

Offline THCoins

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 07:36:02 PM »
Secret  ??? What secret ?
I just gave a preview of two nice coins (with already much more information than provided by the seller).  ;D

Offline THCoins

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Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2015, 01:34:59 PM »
I had planned to extend to this thread when i would have received the coins pictured above. Rob already revealed that the left coin is an issue by Delhi ruler Iltutmish, Tye#385, G&G D046. Goron classifies it as just scarce, but it is probably better called rare.

Nobody dared to attribute the right one. This seems to reflect that it is seldom seen, as this is classified by both Tye and Goron as RR. I am still waiting on the one i bought over the internet. But, yesterday i visited a local coin fair. There was a dealer with a fair amount of ancient Indian coins. And there i stumbled upon the coin displayed below, erroneously attributed as an issue of Khwarezmshah Mangubarni.
Under the rule of Mangubarni large amounts of Bull and Horseman Jitals were produced at Nandana mint. But around 1224AD the armies of Mangubarni were forced West. Ultimately the area came under the control of Iltumish. In the short interregnum in between jitals were probably made under the authority of one of Mangubarni's generals who had stayed behind. We only know of this temporary ruler from his rare coinage as "Sharaf Beg" (Tye) or "Khalif Beg" (G&G). This is one of those rare jitals issued under the name of Sharaf Beg. Of the five very similar Nandana B&H issues this is the one least frequently seen (and in a week i probably have two of them  ;D)

Billon 15 mm, 3.2 grams, Tye#322, G&G SS08. (None to be found on Zeno)
 

Offline capnbirdseye

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Excellent finds, you have become a serious expert on these coins,  8)  I  got a really cheap bag of 60 of these jitals at a coin fair but most are worthless ( hence really cheap  :D)  but doubt there is anything any good but I'm going to be selecting the best ones out of the pile when I get around to it
Vic

Offline THCoins

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I was allowed to cherry pick. But for the cost of two cups of coffee for this one you do not hear me complaining.
But who knows what you will find in your new pile ? My last also gave some unexpected gems. Will keep my fingers crossed for you !

Offline Figleaf

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Very interesting! Please do post the thread you had in mind with the consecutive issues of the Nandana mint. It will help us understand the complicated political developments of those times. Here is my little contribution, a map of the location. My understanding is that there is a hindu temple and a ruined fortress there now...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline THCoins

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Will do Peter, but just need some spare time.
I already had made a similar map to yours, but a bit wider, to show the relative postions of the important cities.
It is no coincidence that there is an almost straight line from Ghazni, Afghanistan to Delhi, India, passing well known mint places like Kurraman, Nandana and Lahore.

Offline bububoy

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this post really got me excited, in the recently concluded TICC, i have purchased a small lot of these types of bull and horseman coins( i frankly have no idea), just bought them because i happen to find the animals on those coins interesting, will keep a watch on this thread for the happenings; keep it coming !
thanks.
mahe