Author Topic: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.  (Read 2788 times)

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Offline constanius

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Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« on: March 27, 2015, 02:21:18 AM »
This is an unlisted 24mm medal, which I have had for sometime, and shown below it is D & H Middx, 1029 somewhat in the same floral vein dated 1801, presumed for the Union of Great Britain & Ireland.  Below that is the frontispiece for Mrs Colpoy's 1801, 4 vol. "Excursion to Ireland", which also has 3 hands clasped as does the unlisted medal......I think.

The floral engraving is quite similar and the 2 'legs' below the shield & the frame also are alike.  So I believe my unlisted medal was issued for the Acts of Union 1801, perhaps by the unknown engraver who signed T.P according to D & H, but could equally be I.P or J.P.





Pat

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Offline constanius

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 01:26:51 AM »
The only candidate, for the period & the initials, that I can find is James Pitt of Birmingham, maker of buttons & tokens.  Variously at Lancaster St., Great Charles St. & 29 Newhall St.  So I think it is possible that the Middlesex token is by him and by extension to my token.

So I think it is datable  to 1801, for the Union of Great Britain & Ireland, and just possibly by James Pitt.

All very tenuous I know but......... ;D

Pat

Pat

Offline malj1

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015, 02:08:43 AM »
I think its an I which of course was commonly used for a J at that time.

I had hopes that RC Bell in his Specious Tokens and those struck for General Circulation may have had further information, he says only that:

Diesinker and manufacturer, unknown. The piece is of light weight and very late date. Rare.

This may be a genuine tradesmen's token. The Union of Ireland with the rest of Britain in 1800 is commemorated in the novel combination of sprigs of rose, thistle, oak and shamrock. The depiction of the last is not very satisfactory.
The reverse is distinctive and the legend unique. Nothing is known of the issuer.
Malcolm
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Offline constanius

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 02:58:28 AM »
Thanks Malcolm.

The similarity of the very rare floral design(including the "not very satisfactory" shamrock) is what drew me to compare the two pieces.  Some of the letters are also similar, that with how unusual the floral display is, lead me to think they could be by the same hand.


50+ years later, this looks like shamrock

Pat
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 03:53:29 AM by constanius »

Pat

Offline malj1

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015, 04:22:11 AM »
Your first piece shown is very reminiscent of the newly designed floral arrangement for the 2017 one pound coin.

See here for a similar discussion regarding the initials TR or JR where this time the former is correct.
Malcolm
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Offline FosseWay

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2015, 09:33:03 AM »
Quis separabit? (Who shall separate (them)?) seems a slightly equivocal, uncertain motto to associate with an Act of Union involving what was then the world's most powerful country. The answer to the rhetorical question is with hindsight not what the original makers of the medal had in mind - Michael Collins, √Čamon de Valera etc.

The motto used at the time of the Scottish-English union - Quae Deus conjunxit nemo separet (Those whom God has joined together let no man put asunder, from the marriage service) - would seem much more jingoistically appropriate for the time. Perhaps there was a subconscious doubt among the English that the union with Ireland would actually work?

Online Manzikert

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2015, 04:54:28 PM »
QUIS SEPARABIT predates the Union as it is the motto of the Order of St Patrick, founded in 1783 as the Irish equivalent of the Order of the Garter and the Order of the Thistle, and therefore an appropriate motto for an Irish token.

The 'legs' are of course the ends of the two sprigs of the wreath behind the shield and the frame on the reverses.

Alan

Offline constanius

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2015, 05:49:07 PM »
A Queen Anne's coronation of 1702 medal used QUIS SEPARABIT in connection with the her being crowned Queen of England, Scotland & Ireland,the edge of that medal was inscribed: UNITED BY GOD IN LOVE AND INTEREST and explains the confidence behind that expression.  I think that though the motto is truncated it was understood that the full intent is that the God blessed bond of love & union is sacred and there is no one who would dare or even could break it.  It could be seen to both apply to the bond between Anne & her people, in regard to the Jacobite threat, and between the nations.

I believe that there were many doubters in regard to full union with Ireland, one major point being that the south was solidly Catholic.  Here is a great overview of that union   http://www.victorianweb.org/history/ireland1.html

Later events proved that motto to be false in regard to Ireland, and Scotland is seeking more & more self rule, perhaps leading to full independence at some future date.

Thanks for all the comments guys, most appreciated.

PS the initials on the pass looked to me to be T R even before the other compelling evidence.

Pat


« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 06:10:11 PM by constanius »

Pat

Offline malj1

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 12:35:39 AM »
Regarding the oak leaves - I feel these are intended as thistle leaves, see the frontispiece from the book where a better job is made of these.

A similar comment was made about the new one pound coin design here
Malcolm
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Offline constanius

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 01:33:44 AM »
I totally agree.

There are oak leaves on the 1801 dated reverse though.

Pat

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Offline constanius

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 10:06:40 PM »
Glad nobody spotted that the obverse & reverse of my 1801 Kettle piece celebrating the Union has all the same design elements that are combined on my unlisted one's obverse, crown, shaking hands and a Union spray of roses, thistles & shamrock. The lower one appear to be 3 hands clasped(there are 3 cuffs) as in the book plate.  The Kettle is 20mm, the other 24mm.




So many mysteries, makes collecting fun.

Pat

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Offline brandm24

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2020, 06:28:27 PM »
While researching a Quis Separabit token I just added to my collection, I came across this thread from 2015.

My example of course is the same as the second one in your image, Pat, and is in my mind a Acts of Union (1801) token. The seller also thought so and dated the piece between 1801 and 1810. It's 20 mm like yours.

 The clasped hands, crown and sprig of rose, thistle, and shamrock all point to an Acts of Union piece and is very similar to the Kettle token you picture. Since the clasped hands has always been associated with Ulster Unionism it fits well. As a matter of fact the symbol is an integral device on the badge of today's Loyalist UDA paramilitary.

As far as the third hand goes, I think the "cuff" is just a base of some kind for the bottom of the stem. On very close examination I see no indication of a third hand.

I had wondered if our tokens had been struck by Kettle & Sons as their signature appears on the similar piece you've illustrated. The firm practiced in Birmingham from 1792 until at least 1830 so the time frame is correct. Unfortunately, the few examples of Kettle's work I examined were all signed "Kettle". Pitt is a possibility but I'm not at all familiar with his work.

The damage on my example was probably caused by an attempt to hole it.

BTW, do you know what the significance of the ship is? I'm puzzled by that.

Bruce

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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2020, 06:50:58 PM »
BTW, do you know what the significance of the ship is? I'm puzzled by that.

Since the detail of the hull is worn off, it is not clear if the ship is a merchantman or a man-of-war, but in view of the context, I think a merchantman is more likely. A merchant ship is quite often used as a symbol for trade, as a means of acquiring wealth (after 1817 generating wealth). Before 1817, the current trade theory was mercantilism. As a symbol, the ship will serve both approaches.

Also, Pat is no longer collecting. His collection has been sold.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Acts of Union 1801, QUIS SEPARABIT.
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2020, 09:04:43 PM »
Thanks, Peter. I'm sure it's a merchant ship then.

Bruce
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