Brass boxes (model coins)

[Figleaf]

Most excellent thread on a subject that is a bit esoteric for coin collectors, but revealingly interesting. Glad it leads to such useful exchanges of spare parts. Very rewarding all.

Peter

[mooreman]

 I have got the £5 note box (sailing boat-Jumping horse), that has that on it, patent/geschuetzt,
 Some where I have a write up that I did some years back on Jahncke`s boxes, i.e. Coins, Vesters, and a hundred other uses.

Thanks for the offer on the Hope box, the farthing of the time was the design used, so I have to stick with that.
 Esoteric, it’s a shame but your right, although I do notice that there are few more bidding on auctions, to my cost.

[mooreman]

This is an interesting one, with a bit of an update on Rogers.
The Joseph Moore Model Penny Box,34mm wide, dated 1854, brass, Rogers 4070.
The date and metal composition vary, 1852 and 1854. Brass and copper.
These early facsimile coin boxes show J Moore’s handy work as a die maker.

[mooreman]

 J. Moore Model Half Crown Box. Dated 1850,  R4055, brass, 32.5mm X 2.5mm thick, plain edge, again different dates and metals. The foils inside of the Lord’s Prayer and Ten commandments does seem common with the ½ Crown box. it would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.

[malj1]

I have never seen those so unable to comment.

[Figleaf]

Not knowing anything about it never stopped me from blabbering about it. There are a number of different boxes in this thread now. Here is how I see them:

• Boxes for containing toy coins
• Snuff boxes with any design
• Souvenir boxes with a souvenir design. For mantelpieces?
• "Amaze your guests" boxes in coin shape.

Your last contribution seems to fall into the fourth category.
"Here's a coin"
"It's not a coin; it's a box you can open"
"Look at the contents, aren't they civilised?"
"Amanda, do you think your father will allow you to marry me?"

Peter

[malj1]

I was referring to the "The foils inside of the Lord’s Prayer and Ten commandments"

All these boxes are very small, the snuff box is approx. 13.8mm that's about half an inch, smaller than your thumbnail ...so would soon get lost if left on the mantelpiece.

Perhaps I should warn Amanda about you? ... a married man. 

[mooreman]

Your right, as you know, these sort of boxes were made for public consumption, Model Coins made by Allen @ Moore came in two sizes, small for the boxes, and the larger ones with which he hoped to persuade  Government, Mint, and others, to replace the old currency. With the help of the little boxes being sold for a few pence, Moor`s bimetallic Model Penny became a hit. Unfortunately not big enough to get it picked.
I think Moore`s Bimetallic coins of the 1840s were quite early in bimetallic coin manufacture. Some one will know the answer to that.
 A Penny collector who has a dated 1844 Joseph Moore Model Penny in their collection should be a happy man.
As you can see one of my interests, is Joseph Moore`s work with Allen@ Moore.

[Figleaf]

I am familiar with the model pennies. I think they should be seen in the context of the 1816 coin reforms in Britain. Before 1816, all coins were supposed to be weight their worth in metal. That was a fiction, but there was usually enough trust in the coins to make the fiction work. After 1816, only two coins, one gold, one silver were "full weight". The rest were fiduciary coins that could in theory be exchanged against full weight coins. It was OK to melt and mint (for a fee) standard coins.

My guess is that the British population in those broadly fell into three categories. A very large majority couldn't care less because they were too busy too survive. A small group of bankers, financiers and the like understood and approved. A small, but vocal minority wanted to set the clock back. How do I know? Because the Bank of England failed to re-introduce standard gold coins. People preferred to use banknotes. The first group would have gone for convenience, the third for tradition, but the first group won handily.

I think Moore appealed to the third group of vocal conservatives. He basically showed that you could issue a silver penny of full weight if you would put it in a flat, copper ring. He was right, but irrelevant. The majority of people didn't care if the penny had a silver plug or not. The technocrats (the second group) knew the whole discussion had become irrelevant. That left him with the conservatives, whose influence is greatly over-estimated (see the gold anecdote above), because "downstairs" was able and willing to blow off steam in public more often (see the letters to the editor in the Times of London) than "upstairs".

Peter

[mooreman]

Interesting social observation, I think that you could also factor in the effect of the Crimean War and other military and national events bolstered the general patriotism affecting the population. Most families of the time could have had a relative or an acquaintance who was involved in the war one way or another. Parades of retuning troops and veterans, marching through the streets attracted large crowds. No TV in those days, if you wanted to see what was happening, you had to be there. The street sellers of small patriotic items such as J Moore’s Model Boxes and coins probably did quite well. Unfortunately, because of their small size many have over the 150 odd years disappeared to an unknown fate. (Same can be said of Onions Teaching Coins)
J Moore’s full size Model Coins were made to a reasonable standard, there were also gold, silver and
other high grade metals used for collectors who wanted something better. Most found to date,
 are in the region of just half a dozen produced, the rare misspelt Penney was possibly a mistake,
so hard to say, but probably 8-10.

[Figleaf]

I think you are right, but the reasons were slightly different. At the time of the Napoleonic wars, the home front was not too preoccupied with war. That changed quite suddenly after the battle of Waterloo. Everyone with a spare room or space in the attic needed a model of the battle, populated with tin soldiers.

The reason is not so much the casualties or the parades, but the changed role of Britain. In the European framework, the country had always been second rank at best, neither as massive as Russia or Germany, nor as rich as Spain or France. Waterloo made it into a world class power. Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands had become allies and France was quickly forgiven and could participate in the Vienna Congress. That alliance would eventually fall apart, but Britain remained at the top of the food chain, while greatly expanding its colonial empire.

In that sense, I think the boxes were not just souvenirs, but also reminders of national pride, in a time when lands stopped being personal fiefs of a family of rulers, not necessarily connected by language, culture and history, becoming a nation-state, a political units of an "us versus them" character. I would have called it nationalist, rather than patriotic.

BTW, I now need to know about "onions teaching coins". Please enlighten me.

Peter

[mooreman]

You need to ask Malcom about Onions Teaching Coins.

[malj1]

They can be seen here

imageshack closed down all the free accounts unless you were prepared to take out a subscription! so several of my images are missing I have replaced some let me know if anything else is missing.

[Figleaf]

Such Good Onions!

Peter

[malj1]

Of course I can now copy the image to here



A set of teaching toy coins by S G Onions, thought to have been made made about 1843 before the issue of a threepence in 1845 and the florin in 1848.