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Author Topic: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.  (Read 2858 times)

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Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 03:17:00 PM »
Another one of these has come my way,   from that Amal Hayati website it looks like this is Balog 525?
Vic

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2015, 08:54:13 PM »
Balog 525 attached.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2015, 11:08:41 PM »
Balog 525 attached.


Thank you, it does seem to be the one I think
Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2017, 12:15:42 PM »
Being unhappy still with the description "fleur de lis", I looked around for a better explanation in Uzbekistan. I think I found it. The first picture is a stamp, used to decorate traditional flat bread (nan), purchased in a Bukhara bazar. The symbol is a pomegranate, cut in half, a traditional islamic symbol for fertility.

The second picture shows another piece of folk art: a carved wooden pillar in a restaurant in Bukhara. This is a stylised pomegranate, intertwined with flowers. he lower part of the pomegranate merges with other parts of the design.

I think pomegranate (leaves) is a more apt description of the design than fleur de lis.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline saro

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Re: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2017, 01:44:28 PM »
Heraldic "Fleur de Lys" on Mamluks coins  quoted from David Collection :

"Like all Mamluk copper coins, this one struck in Aleppo was intended purely for local use. The Mamluks frequently placed ornaments, arabesques, scrolls or flowerets among the legends of their coins. They also introduced a new feature on the coinage, particularly the copper fulus, which have been described as
heraldry but are actually emblems, or blazons, representing the rulers. When striking large numbers of copper coins it was much easier to limit the legends to the mint name and the name of the ruler on the reverse, with the emblem often taking up the whole of the obverse field. Research shows that as many as twenty-six Mamluk sultans are represented by their blazons.

That of the first Bahri Mamluk ruler was a lion, others chose rosettes, stylised flowers, a form of chalice or birds.

Al-Muzaffar Hajji had only time to place one emblem on his copper, and this was the fleur-de-lys, which was much favoured by Qala‘un and his descendants. Six other rulers chose this device to identify their coins, although most of them employed more than one. For example the coins of al-Ashraf Sha‘ban II bore the fleur-de-lys, two different forms of rosette, a lion, a crescent and a fesse that divides the face of the coin into three segments. Copper coins were often recalled to the mint and restruck with a different design, and then sold to the public in return for silver, which was an effective way of raising revenue
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Mamluk, Ali II (al-Mansur `Ala al-Din), AE fals, Trablus, undated.
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 04:02:20 PM »
See replies #9 and 13 above why I doubt that Western authors writing about Eastern symbols get it right, especially in numismatics, where there are long and stubborn traditions copied from one writer to the other.

There is a well known experiment, in which a student was confronted with an Egyptian symbol he didn't know and was asked to copy it. The student's drawings were used on another student, who was also asked to copy it. After a number of iterations, the unknown Egyptian symbol had morphed into a known cat. Humans change what they don't recognise (in this case the stylised half pomegranate) into something they are familiar with (in this the Frankish stylised lily).

However, especially because symbols are so powerful, it is very unlikely indeed that the Mamluks would have accepted the fleur-de-lis, a symbol so close to the hearts of their crusading religious opponents. In modern terms, how likely is it that we will see a mosque on a US coin or a church on an Iranian coin in our lifetimes?

Having argued that it's highly unlikely to be a Frankish heraldic fleur-de-lis, I should come up with an alternative, which I did above. Take into account that I saw the pillar in the company of an Uzbek moslem. I asked him for an explanation and he came up with the pomegranate. Similarly, I bought the bread stamp in the company of an Uzbek woman. She explained the design as a pomegranate. Keep in mind how in moslem decorative art, stems can be elongated or disappear, leaves can be shown longer or shorter to suit the design and there is little or no perspective...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.