Neewbie US collector with couple of questions

[worldwebber]

Hi.
I just started collecting us coins and decided to start with 1 cents and 5 cents.
Looking through my grandfathers old collection I found approximately 250-300 pcs of the Indian head cent and when sorting them on years I found two coins with same year but very different colour.
So my first question is if the colour difference (pictures attached) is only due to patina differences? Or are there fakes of this coins in the market?
Due to the low value, both face value and collector $ value, I doubt that there is any fakes/copies of this coin?
Is there a reasonable explanation to the big difference? The wear on both coins are approximately the same.

I have obtained a red book from 2006 and was wondering if there is a good website that clearly shows the difference on the varieties that exist.
The book has picture examples but in some cases, eg. the 1936 double die and the 1943 boldly doubled mintmark and the 1944 d over s , then the pictures tell me nothing because I can't see any difference on the varieties and regular type.
So I have no idea how to define if I have the variety or not.
The name of the variant of course tells me what to look for, but the d over a and double mintmark seems to me that it takes a trained eye to see?
If someone could link to, or post pictures that clearly shows the difference, I would really appreciate it.
Thx.

[Figleaf]

Fact: US coins have been exhaustively and repeatedly described, up to the very smallest detail. There are no big discoveries left.
Fact: A coin can take almost any colour, except white, by exposing it to the right chemicals.

Your grandfather lived in more innocent times. He may have picked up this coin in circulation, like you, wondering about its colour. He must have had fun researching it (remember: no internet) and showing it to other collectors and dealers, harvesting a large number of blanks. He held on to his discovery because "you never know".

Before diving into collecting a (small) cent set, try making a list of pros and cons. Here are some characteristics. You decide if they are pros, cons or indifferent:

• Relatively long series.
• Relatively cheap. The chase counts for more than the amount of money you can throw at it.
• Relatively hard to sell. Not a good investment.
• Exhaustively catalogued. Nothing to discover, just tick marks on a want list.
• Easy to discuss, others will be doing the same thing.
• Small coins, hard on the eyes. you'll need equipment to enlarge.

Compare that with these alternatives:

• Set of US halves without commemoratives.
• Type set of US coins (no varieties) from say around 1850.
• Third century Roman bronze coins.

The exercise may confuse you, but at least you will be confused on a higher level.

Peter

[Prosit]

In general the color is from the patina which is caused by the myrid environments coins pass through during their various histories. Coins like you show are not that uncommon. It is pretty common to find black Buffalo Nickels too. Color can be caused by deliberate actions too.

Variations:
For many of us learning what the variations in a catalog look like is a challenge because many catalogs are less than helpful in that respect. However like Peter says US coins are very well documented and most if not all series have a lot of literature about them. You just have to find the right book.

Fakes in US coins
Yours looks real to me but can't tell from a picture or scan.
Many coins have been faked or regular coins altered to look like rarer coins.
Even cheap coins have been duplicated for many reasons, often time for use in jewelry, as toy money, watch fobs and key chains. Passing them as money often was not the reason.

If you continue to be interested in coin collecting I do have some advice.
Buy the literature.
Buy a nice magnifying glass, many suggest 10X
Don't buy expensive coins until you know more about what you are doing, but by all means buy coins that interest you and to learn about.
Buy a good scale to weigh the coins, at least to 2 decimal places. Many fakes
are off weight but that won't help with altered coins.
You will also need a caliper to measure the diameter and thickness.

The best advice is to keep it fun so certainly keep your risk small at first.

Dale
Texas

[worldwebber]

Thanx for advice. I never collect with investment as a factor. My favourite coin in my entire coin collection costs $2 :-)
I was adviced to buy red book.
I live in Scandinavia so need to order online to get them but that works 100% :-)

[bgriff99]

Higher value Indian cents are being counterfeited in China massively, perfect die struck uncirculated's which are very difficult to differentiate.   But not 1907's and well-circulated.

The brown coin is the normal color.   The black one, to have gotten that way naturally, would have had to be left in water or mud which was de-oxygenated, for many years.    The color more likely is from something else, like silver plating which completely tarnished.

Not to dissuade you from doing Indian cents, but inevitably you'll be working back with dates into ones that are expensive in any but the lowest grades.   Collecting by date seems fine when looking at readily available 1880-1909 stuff, but turns into a trap, with very little payoff in satisfaction at the end, if you get there.    It's weird, but a few unfilled holes in an album can become the focus instead of enjoying the finds, and what you already have.   And as Peter alludes, it is no real hunt, just a matter of money.   

I would like to see scans of one or two gems of the hoard from your grandfather.   My father had saved a shoebox of them when he went off to war in 1942.   When he returned MY grandfather had spent them.   

Regarding the varieties you mention, presumably you are watching for them among pieces you already have.   Nobody I know collects trace overdates and such.
If the photos in the Redbook aren't clear enough on their unc. specimens, you probably won't be able to see it on a circulated coin at all.    But with magnification, you will see other interesting things.

It's a shame you have to do your hunting online.   At coin shows here, you can usually get circulated non-scarce dates pretty cheap.   Coin collecting is not interesting anybody young in the US, so dealers hold most of the material and can't move it.    Indian cents were already gone from circulation when I was a kid, but that was the first series I collected.

[Quant.Geek]

It's a shame you have to do your hunting online.   At coin shows here, you can usually get circulated non-scarce dates pretty cheap.   Coin collecting is not interesting anybody young in the US, so dealers hold most of the material and can't move it.    Indian cents were already gone from circulation when I was a kid, but that was the first series I collected.

I was hunting for wheat cents when I was a kid.  There were plenty of them as well.  I picked up one of those whitman folders and started populating my finds.  Filled up a good chunk of the folder too and these were coins I found in pocket change.  Nothing purchased from collectors or dealers!  With the price of copper ever increasing, a lot of the wheat cents have been removed from circulation.  Once in a blue moon, I might spot one, but they are now a rare bird  .  Collecting coins will never be like what it used to be.  It is now more complicated and more expensive. 

[Globetrotter]

Thanx for advice. I never collect with investment as a factor. My favourite coin in my entire coin collection costs $2 :-)
I was adviced to buy red book.
I live in Scandinavia so need to order online to get them but that works 100% :-)

Now Numista is doing a very good show for all the US variants, I would even tend to say better than the Red Book, try en.numista.com, you'll not regret it! Here the 1908 cents as a teaser
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2356.html, in the comments section please click see more!

Enjoy