Author Topic: Fake coins of the Netherlands and its colonies  (Read 15041 times)

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Offline kriyasa

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2011, 02:53:47 PM »
They are contemporary fakes, and obviously profitable to produce at the time, given reasonable quantity, given the NEI duit was worth 1/4 of a silver stuiver against the Dutch duit worth 1/8th; i.e. you could for instance buy a quantity of raw copper using silver coins, and produce a quantity of copper duits valued much higher in silver terms than the raw copper would be.

Yes you have a good point, but please also consider the limitation of copper coins being produced by the dutch at that time (hard to find copper) plus the cost to make the forgery coins. Still it doesn't make any sense.

If it is not easy to make copper coins for the dutch, why there are forgery coins made of copper.

Offline thelawnet

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2011, 03:25:28 PM »
Yes you have a good point, but please also consider the limitation of copper coins being produced by the dutch at that time (hard to find copper) plus the cost to make the forgery coins. Still it doesn't make any sense. If it is not easy to make copper coins for the dutch, why there are forgery coins made of copper.

Regardless of whether the copper was hard to find, the Dutch would hardly produce coinage at a loss. I'm not sure of this cost of transportation, but I would be surprised if copper coins cost twice as much to make in the Indies as against Europe.

On top of this, the forgeries are likely to be underweight, resulting in greater profit. And whereas a government producing millions of coins does face supply problems, an individual forger making a few hundred does not have the same issues.

Offline kriyasa

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2011, 03:50:14 PM »
Regardless of whether the copper was hard to find, the Dutch would hardly produce coinage at a loss. I'm not sure of this cost of transportation, but I would be surprised if copper coins cost twice as much to make in the Indies as against Europe.

On top of this, the forgeries are likely to be underweight, resulting in greater profit. And whereas a government producing millions of coins does face supply problems, an individual forger making a few hundred does not have the same issues.

How about if profit was not only the motives behind the forgeries. it is not only a theory. I knew this from my friend, that in some are in Indonesia, i.e. Bali and Makassar: Indonesia, people have a tradition to use coins as tools for ceremonial usage.

in Makassar, people use rooster/chicken coins to build houses. they buried on the ground, prior to building the house.

in Bali, they use kepeng/chinese coins for ceremonial purposes.

Maybe it is not a forgery coins, but some kind of temple coins or apparatus for ceremonial purposes. 

Regards,

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2011, 04:19:44 PM »
Interesting theory.

It is well known that even today, Chinese people al over the world use fake money at funerals. Today, it is mostly paper (hell banknotes), but on old Chinese burial grounds, strings of cash coins, fake and genuine, could be found. Grave robbers have stripped away these coins, but the old pictures of the graves remain. There is a religious background for this practice: the dead were thought to be needing money in the afterlife. Of course, this tradition was maintained in the Peranakan cultures and among ethnic Chinese in South-East Asia.

Then, many numismatists think that the earliest flat coins of Indonesia as illustrated in Netscher and Van der Chijs are actually temple tokens. They may also be the background of their use on Bali.

The Makassar usage is new to me. It fits in with European traditions of burying a coin below the threshold of a new house, or nailing a coin (mostly a counter) to a door post, especially because the cock duits are also not coins in the strict sense of the word.

However, when it comes to VOC and NEI copper imitations, things are different. First, AFAIK there is no tradition in Islam that says the dead need money in the afterlife. Second, I am not aware of the use of coins in mosques, other than as money. Third, one would expect that if there was a need for ceremonial coins, they would be Asian in character, not European. Most important, if the imitations had a ceremonial use, I believe that between Netscher and Van der Chijs, Moquette and Scholten someone would have mentioned it. Instead, they agree that many of the coppers in circulation were imitations.

You are in a much better position to research your theory than I am. If you can find temples where they were used, old pictures, or other clues, please do show them. In the world of coins, usage is likely or unlikely, but not often certain.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline kriyasa

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2011, 04:40:22 PM »
I agree with you, that Islam never buried coins for afterlife purposes :)

Well, to be honest I'm having problem in uploading pictures, even though the picture already made less then 65Kb, it's still hard to upload pictures. Maybe next time Sir.

Thanks,

Offline thelawnet

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2011, 04:46:10 PM »
I agree with you, that Islam never buried coins for afterlife purposes :)

Well, to be honest I'm having problem in uploading pictures, even though the picture already made less then 65Kb, it's still hard to upload pictures. Maybe next time Sir.

Thanks,

I normally use http://www.imageshack.us/
 and then you can include the image from there.

Offline kriyasa

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Re: Louis Napoleon duit (Netherlands Indies) - crude contemporary fake
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2011, 04:49:43 PM »
 :) Sorry, I thought the uploader slot under the threat is working. 

Offline squarecoinman

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Fake 2,5 Gulden Netherlands
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2012, 06:54:33 PM »
I found this on a marked in Suzhou, ( China ) in the cheap basket ( those are fakes that are not very good ) there is also a folder with "expensive" Fake coins , Of course they will always tell you that the coins are Silver and good quality , But when I tell them in Chinese that I work in China , things get more relaxed. ( and a lot cheaper )

What is interesting for me to see ( and also what worries me ) is that the quality of the fakes are improving almost every year , and the day that they will start to use Silver of the correct weight, It is going to be hell to collect any thing that is slightly more expensive then the silver price.

Squarecoinman
World square coin book 1900-2000

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Fake 2,5 Gulden Netherlands
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2012, 10:51:41 PM »
The letters are dead wrong, including even the mint mark and this is not even a difficult coin to find. Did you notice the funny "G" in the legend? I bet they had a "K" there before :)

Did you enjoy the gardens?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline squarecoinman

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Re: Fake 2,5 Gulden Netherlands
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2012, 11:04:48 PM »
I always enjoy the gardens ( this was bought just outside the master of nets garden )  And I did not look to good at the G, but I think you are right it must have been a K )

But is till wonder why make this one as a fake ( it is easy enough to find the real one ) and not even expensive

Michael

World square coin book 1900-2000

Offline Figleaf

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TOA
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2013, 06:03:28 PM »
See this page.

I had the pleasure to discuss the TOA ducats with a distinguished numismatic visitor last weekend. I have an idea of what these are, but I wouldn't want to prejudge yours (that's also why I have posted this here). What are your thoughts? Do you have any in your collection you can show us?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Prosit

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Re: TOA
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2013, 08:20:59 PM »
Don't know what TOA stands for.
Dale


Offline SpaBreda

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Re: TOA
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2013, 08:33:06 PM »
Maybe it's a poor E or F (see other letters) and should it be FOA or EOA ...
Clueless about it's meaning though ...

Paul.

ps. none in my collection  ;D

Offline Figleaf

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Re: TOA
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2013, 10:32:14 PM »
TOA means nothing. It's just a place holder for where otherwise the mintmark would have been, e.g. TRA or HOL.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline chrisild

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Re: TOA
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2013, 11:05:13 PM »
What I don't get is ... why would "TOA" be on such imitations? Those who made them will have seen actual ducats before - why not simply use actual province abbreviations?

Christian