douzain with 2 nice countermarks (french lelie) but what's the story?

[Michiel]

I founded this terrible bad silver douzain. Its trimmed (is that the correct word for "gesnoeid"?) its cut, in 1 word, its terrible.

But, by closer inspection, on the 2d picture, there are 2 very nice french lelie countermarks.

I have trouble to place the coin.

weight 1,86 gram
size 22 mm

[THCoins]

I founded this terrible bad silver douzain. Its trimmed (is that the correct word for "gesnoeid"?)

Yes Trimmed or Clipped=Gesnoeid. You see, it just takes practice to improve your English !
(Andere hint: "I founded" betekent in het Engels "Ik heb opgericht", je bedoelt "I found". )

Can't tell you much about the coin though..

[Michiel]

Yes Trimmed or Clipped=Gesnoeid. You see, it just takes practice to improve your English !
(Andere hint: "I founded" betekent in het Engels "Ik heb opgericht", je bedoelt "I found". )

Can't tell you much about the coin though..

Never to old to learn. But it is very hard to write it. but till now in the most topics the members know what i mean (i hope so).

but ontopic,

on this site:
http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/French.1.html

So it seems that this coin is struck in the french states Dauphine, the year must be 1594 and is countermarked in 1640 (in my case it has 2 cm's) for use in the new french places?

[Figleaf]

Like the coin you refer to, this coin has two stories: where and how the host coin was struck originally and why it was countermarked.

The coin you have is also a douzain from the Dauphiné struck in 1593. The telling detail is that the shield is quartered to show both three heraldic lilies in the first and third quarter and the heraldic dolphin in the second and fourth quarter. On the regular French coins, only the lillies are shown. See first attachment for more detail. Your host coin is Duplessy 1256.

These coins were struck in bad times. If you have a chance, watch the movie "La Reine Margot" for a pretty good idea of these murderous times. Coins were struck badly and hastily to finance everyone's effort to be more violent than the neighbours. When the country finally calmed down, it was stuck with lots of bad coins. That's where the second part of your coin's story begins.

The bad coins (including yours) were withdrawn and stored by mints. The cut on your coin is actually made on pupose, to show that the coin was withdrawn, so that even if the coin was stolen, it could not be spent again like it was. They were stored, because the mints did not have the capacity to melt them and turn them into good coins. That situation continued for decades. Meanwhile, France was building a colonial empire in North America that eclipsed anything the English had. It comprised much of what today is the East of Canada and the United States and was called Nouvelle France. The idea was to surround the English colonies on the Eastern seaboard. The remnants of this huge French area can be found in Quebec and Louisiana.

The big problem was lack of money (and lack of priority for the French kings). However, there was all this silver lying around in the king's mints, doing nothing. Solution: counterstamp the bad silver coins and ship them to Nouvelle France, where they can be circulated at a rate of 15 (rather than 12) deniers. This was decided by edict of 1640. Even the withdrawn coins were called back for duty. They probably shipped from La Rochelle, the traditional Atlantic port. These coins should of course be included in catalogues of US and Canadian coins, but they are quite often overlooked. Even the countermarks were sloppily applied, so it is nothing special to find the countermark applied twice.

On the second attachment, you can see the listing of the coin in Duplessy as number 1343. Note the cut in the plate coin. Note also that the description says the host coins are "douzains of preceding reigns", so the fact that yours is also for the Dauphiné and in the name of Henri IV is just a coincidence. Your coin may be a dog to look at, it is a major historic document with two great stories.

One last thing. There is a list of numismatic terms and their translations here. I am always looking for volunteers to add more languages.

Peter

[Michiel]

Peter, May i thank you for the 100st time again. 

You're story is very clear for me. But, put the coin in my french or north american collection.

(north america it will be)