Half dollars in North America

Started by Figleaf, July 25, 2014, 04:51:21 PM

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Figleaf

Quote from: Pabitra on July 25, 2014, 11:58:08 AM
If they can not make money with them then this certainly is not the way.

I disagree with the Canadian concept of a what a mint is for. It is based on a primitive and crude form of capitalism. Circulating coined money is not a good like any other. Coins are a social good with large positive externalities, much like schools, hospitals, tunnels, bridges and roads. In other words, coins have a positive influence on the economy, they generate value that is not expressed in their price.

It is already not too difficult for a money to turn a profit, as the cost price of a coin should be a fraction of its denomination. In addition, the coins in circulation are a free credit to the government (seigniorage) that should be attributed to mints, but in practice isn't. I am aware that some governments insist on keeping coins in circulation that cost more to produce than their denomination. They do this for perceived political reasons, it is their problem, not mine and it does not invalidate the above.

The point is that mints have no reason to issue a diarrhoea of "coins" not used for circulation, even if that turns a profit. Greediness does not befit sovereign states. Pseudo coins impinge on the dignity of the state. They cheapen it because the state should not be in the business of selling trinkets on the back of its prestige. Canada can leave such issues to North Korea, China, Poland, Cuba and a host of non-serious micro states plus a host of non-serious private pseudo-coin sellers. In addition to having no reason for this behaviour, the Canadian mint's policy is costing the country prestige.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Prosit

I agree with Peter completely. But I do have this to say about that  ;D

At first the Canadian Mint was a branch mint of the British Royal Mint.
The ceremonial opening of the Ottawa branch took place Jan 2, 1908.
It had to do what it was told and that was make coins.

December 1, 1931 ownership passed to Canada under the Department of Finance.

Under the terms of the Government Organization Act of 1969, the Royal Canadian Mint became a Crown Corporation. As a Crown Corporation it was required to make a profit.

The only shareholder is the government and it reports to Parliament through the Ministry of National Revenue and is administered under the Department of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

To make a profit the administrators have been quick to take advantage of every opportunity. They have been quite successful.

So it is a government mint that isn't a government mint.
Don't you just love bureaucracy  ;D

Dale





Pabitra

Quote from: quaziright on July 25, 2014, 02:46:07 PM
50c coins are not made for circulation

They are regular part of their coin set.
They are issued in circulation as per demand, as is common in all the countries all over the world.
Their mintage is low, perhaps owing  to poor demand.
The query was that is there a proposal to redesign it?

Quote from: Figleaf on July 25, 2014, 04:51:21 PM
The point is that mints have no reason to issue a diarrhoea of "coins" not used for circulation, even if that turns a profit. Greediness does not befit sovereign states.

Come on , Peter. I agree with you but those poor guys have all the rights to save their livelihood, in view of falling demand for their products. You should be charitable to buy their items, since you can afford to do this philanthropic work  ;D

andyg

Quote from: Pabitra on July 26, 2014, 12:37:05 PM
They are regular part of their coin set.
They are issued in circulation as per demand, as is common in all the countries all over the world.
Their mintage is low, perhaps owing  to poor demand.

Canadian halves do not circulate (much like the US ones).
The only place I ever find them in Canada is over the counter in a dealers at a premium.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Prosit

At most banks in the USA, if the clerk is willing, you can have all the 50c coins you want at face.
Clerks being clerks but individuals never the less, your experiences will vary.

I look at the US Half-dollar as an odd duck. It is a circulation issue that doesn't circulate.
Well up to a point...uhmmmm date.

Since they are no longer distributed to banks through the Federal Reserve System for face, they have crossed the line
and now truly are non-circulation issues and must be bought at a premium. Not true for all years though.

I don't know about the intent of the Canadian halves....if they were distributed to banks for circulation at face I would consider them circulation
issues weather they ever circulated or not and regardless of the market value today.

Dale


Quote from: andyg on July 26, 2014, 12:48:29 PM
Canadian halves do not circulate (much like the US ones).
The only place I ever find them in Canada is over the counter in a dealers at a premium.

<k>

Quote from: Prosit on July 26, 2014, 09:10:46 PM
I look at the US Half-dollar as an odd duck. It is a circulation issue that doesn't circulate.
Well up to a point...uhmmmm date.

Dale

So just WHY don't Americans like the half dollar?
Visit the website of The Royal Mint Museum.

See: The Royal Mint Museum.

Prosit

Same reason Pavlov's dog salivated at the ringing of a bell  ;D
Training


Currently when I stand in line at any store, someone paying with money is the exception rather than the rule.
So at this point in history there is no need for them and not a lot of need for money at all compared to 20 years ago.

In the late 1950's and early 1960's the 50c did circulate.
After 1964 50c coins dated 1964 and earlier were removed from circulation by anyone that saw one because they were
Silver and worth more than face.

JFK was very popular and his coins (1964 and later) were also kept as a memento and the 1964 was 90% Silver too.
After 1964 and up to 1970, they were 40% Silver and removed from circulation thinking that if they weren't worth
much now they would be in the future because of the Silver. The 1970 was only issued in Mint sets.

Those years 1964-1970 when they were being removed as the were found established a habit.
People saw they got along just fine without them and developed a habit of squirreling them away.

My mother, a non collector did too although she knew better as I told her so often enough but the habit had been formed.
Even today she still has a bag of 50c non Silver issues packed away in a dresser drawer as I suspect many many people do.

A social tide is a force not to be discounted in planning a currency the people don't want.
Either give them what they want or give them no choice.

Dale







Quote from: <k> on July 26, 2014, 10:21:51 PM
So just WHY don't Americans like the half dollar?

Figleaf

True words all especially the conclusion. I would just like to add a minor point. After the introduction of the dollar banknote, the half was the largest and heaviest coin in circulation. If that is a problem for the population, they will turn to using quarters, especially when two quarters are significantly lighter than one half.

Having solved that problem, they then go the gym to pay for the privilege of doing some weight lifting. :)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

FosseWay

Quote from: Prosit on July 26, 2014, 09:10:46 PM
At most banks in the USA, if the clerk is willing, you can have all the 50c coins you want at face.

My experience of US banks is precisely this, and most of the non-silver halves and dollars, plus a good number of the state quarters, that I now have came from this route. It is a service that doesn't cost the bank much, keeps customers happy and encourages the belief that the local bank branch is a part of the community. None of that is understood by any of the British banks or the Post Office, where you can't even pay legal tender money into your own account these days if it doesn't fall into very narrow criteria of acceptability.

On the use of half-dollars in circulation, I thought their unpopularity stemmed from their size, but evidently not. In any case the Australian 50c doesn't seem to suffer from that problem and it is enormous. (I've never been to Australia unfortunately, but various relatives have, and the coins they've brought back have always included a good selection of 50c coins.)

Social conditioning as an explanation is a convincing one. Two further examples:

1. From at least 1816 and possibly earlier until 1982 there was no coin in regular production or use in circulation between the half-crown (1/8 pound) and the half-sovereign or ten-shilling note (1/2 pound). The gap was even greater after 1970, when the lower figure became 10p. Crowns existed and were produced in reasonable numbers some years in the 19th century, and a four-shilling piece was experimented with in the 1880s but neither were popular in use - I've always understood, because of their size. But at the same time there was apparently no clamour for a gold equivalent or for a banknote. People were quite happy simply not to have anything at the 0,20 or 0,25 level.

2. Before the euro the highest denomination circulation Italian coin was 1000 lire (about 50 eurocent), and that had only been introduced a few years previously. The Italians were entirely happy and accustomed to carting around bundles of tiny banknotes for 1000 and 2000 lire, about the size of two credit cards side by side. When the euro was introduced with its fixed set of coin and banknote denominations, there was serious discussion in the Italian press about the possibility of instead producing banknotes for the 1 and 2 euro denominations.

In both cases, however, this social engineering can be overcome. The British 20p piece has overtaken the 10p in its range of uses (payphones, pub billiard tables and such) and the Italians seem to accept the euro coinage in much the same way as everyone else in the eurozone. But in both cases there was a degree of compulsion from the authorities. UK 10ps weren't minted at all for over a decade and when they were, they were smaller, meaning a break from what they were used for before. You can't spend lire notes in Italy any more. The US's problem is that it continues churning out dollar bills while also trying to get people to use dollar coins, and issuing half-dollars that are too big, both absolutely and in relation to the quarter and the (new) dollar.

Prosit

#9
The concept that a coin (any coin) is/was unpopular because it is/was too large is often a very convenient way for popular coin-literature author's to gloss over complicated social and fiscal trends they don't understand. I don't claim to either and to give the devil his due it is/was a piece of the answer and the public itself may even tout that answer if asked.

Go back to USA 1857. The US Large Cent had circulated very well since its inception in 1793. Now all of a sudden it is too big so they reduced the size from 27.5mm and 10.89g to 19mm and 4.67g.

Actually it was too big for its dwindling purchasing power and became inconvenient for what it was worth. We will put up with a lot of inconvenience as long as it is worth it or even treasure that inconvenience as long as size contributes to that sense of worth. They also eliminated the ½ Cent at that time as well which tends to support the dwindling purchasing power theory.

Canada, 1920, they do the same thing and reduce their cent's size as well. Dwindling purchase power made the combination of size and denomination inconvenient as well as reducing the Mints profit margin. I suspect in the case of the USA and Canada the Mints saw a way to increase profit by decreasing cost and that played the biggest roll in the changes. I doubt that reason alone could have happened in isolation without other factors making it possible.

The US Silver Dollar had limited circulation for a lot of years. It however did have a lot of purchase power. It just wasn't as convenient as the paper dollar for folks that didn't grow up during the depression years. Depression era folks didn't trust banks and especially paper money. Prior to that there were other reasons that predominated. Mainly I think because the poor and working class (the majority of the populace) didn't have enough money to make the dollar unit all that useful.

My dad in the early 1960's worked at a gas station and won a plaque from Gates Belt manufacturer. That plaque had several Silver dollars in it, I forget now but 8 or 9. First thing he did was promptly take them out and spend them. That was a lot of money for a fellow who struggled to pay for a $700 auto and a 3k house. Today I have spent up to $11 for a freaking burger, drink and fries. It was a crappy burger BTW.

The Ike dollar, 38.1mm, 1971-1978, and its follower in my opinion showcases the fallacy of the "it's too big" concept. It never circulated much but I made a few dollars drilling holes in them and making key chains out of them  It was replace 1979-1981 and a last gasp in 1999 by the Anthony dollar. Much smaller but even more unpopular if possible proving size wasn't really the basic issue. Jump ahead to the Sac dollar (2009-present) and it never circulated and doesn't and can't now as it isn't issued for circulation. Good looking coin, different color than any other dollar or coin and only 26.5mm. Doesn't circulate but is a nice collectible.

If a large size isn't the reason the dollar doesn't circulate (and it isn't and wasn't) it sure isn't the reason the now larger (but then smaller) half dollar doesn't.

Social training, lack of necesity, and available other options are why they are unpopular.

Dale


Quote from: FosseWay on July 27, 2014, 07:29:27 PM

...
On the use of half-dollars in circulation, I thought their unpopularity stemmed from their size, but evidently not. In any case the Australian 50c doesn't seem to suffer from that problem and it is enormous. 
...

bgriff99

Regarding half dollars circulating in the US and Canada, Franklin halves circulated fully throughout their issue period.   When Kennedy's came out in 1964, they were hoarded almost completely in their first issue year.   The following year the clad coins came out, so all silver was aggressively hoarded.   I did my part.   Franklin and walking Liberty halves in decent condition vanished instantly.   The silver clad Kennedy's issued 1965-69 were taken too.   Then no circulation halves were issued for two years.    When they began again in 1971, somehow they never seemed to be wanted or used.

In Canada in the mid 1960's half dollars already had stopped circulating at all.   Banks had a few loose ones.   I couldn't even get a single roll in 1965 trying four or five banks one after the other.

onecenter

In my 45+ years of collecting Canadian coins from circulation, only one time did I ever received a Canadian half dollar was a 1953-dated coin in the early 1970's in upstate New York. :)

Back in 1982, I went to a Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce branch in Eaton Centre in Toronto to obtain some rolls of Canadian coins to take back home to New York.  The Bank had no half dollars even then, but I did receive a full, commemorative-wrapped roll of 20 Patriation of the Constitution dollars.  I still have it, unopened. 8)  A nice, hefty lot!

All of my other Canadian halves in my collection have been issued in proof-like and proof sets.
Mark