Patagons in Liege...

[KennyisaG]

I've been doing some research on Liege and I'm stuck with the values. What I have so far is that:

1 Patagon = 6 Escalin = 12 Plaquette = 192 Liard
Is this correct?

Also have seen denominations that range from Snaphaen to Rosart, what currency do they belong to?

[Figleaf]

The monetary systems of Luik/Liège and the Austrian Netherlands are the same.

Patagon/daalder = 48 sols
Escalin/schelling = 6 sols
Plaquette/plaket = 14 liards.
Liard/oord = ¼ sol

This system was introduced in leaps and bounds by Ferdinand Wittelsbach (1612-1650). Earlier systems have other denominations. As an example, Prince-Bishop Johann-Theodor Wittelsbach (1744-63) issued pieces of 1, 2 and 4 liards, plaket, 6, 12 sols, patagon as well as gold ducats that floated against silver.

A snaphaanschelling is the nickname a coin of the Northern Netherlands of 6 stuivers, issued from 1492. It is a relatively large silver coin that should not be confused with the smaller Southern Netherlands' escalin. BTW, a snaphaan is a highway robber. The coin shows a knight on a galloping horse, apparently reminding people of a robber baron.

A roosschelling (roosaert) is the nickname a coin of the Northern Netherlands of 6 stuivers, issued from 1601. Its official weight and fineness are 5.27 grams and 583/1000. It bore an elaborate cross, apparently taken for a rose.

Peter

[KennyisaG]

Everywhere you answer, you are helpful! Thank you!

What are the sol equivelants and Dutch translations of ducaton, patard, ecu, denier, real, mite, and sol? I've also noticed that Spanish Netherlands tends to use French names (one coin from Namur issued as 2 L(iards), is this correct?

[FosseWay]

Swedish, or rather Danish, snapphanar were more respectable than mere highwaymen. They were pro-Danish resistance fighters who rebelled for several decades in Skåne, Blekinge and southern Halland after Sweden took over those provinces following the Treaty of Roskilde in 1658. They were of course ultimately unsuccessful - Sweden has ruled those provinces ever since.

[Figleaf]

What are the sol equivelants and Dutch translations of ducaton, patard, ecu, denier, real, mite, and sol?

The North and the South were no longer at war after 1648, but relations remained bad, mainly for religious reasons. Sometimes, the same names were used in North and South, but the coins are not of the same weight. In addition, economic warfare continued, so introducing lightweight coins to undercut the North was a national sport. Luik/Liège was dominated by the Wittelsbach (Bavaria), while the rest was dominated by Habsburg (Austria), which gave tensions as well. Tariffs were used to promote the circulation of light-weight coins and imitations of successful coins were issued. Also, foreign coins circulated freely. A fine mess they got themselves into, Stanley.

French coins:
- Livre (florin in Flemish) = 20 patards = 20 sols
- patard = 12 deniers
This is the same Carolingian system used for the £sd system used until 1967 in Britain.

The ecu/schild of 15 sols was a silver coin. It was originally gold. The gold variant was imitated in Liège/Luik.

Spanish coin
- Real/Reaal = 1/8 peso. Floated against the local currency. Imitated in Luik.

Southern Netherlands coins
- Ducaton = 60 sols. Introduced with the reforms of 1618, together with the patagon. Lightweight in relation to large Northern Netherlands silver coins, it made important inroads in the economy of the North. Beaten back by the Northern Netherlands' silver rider from 1659.
- Mijt/Mite. A small local copper coin with different tariff value in different regions, from 2 to 8 mite to the liard.

You haven't mentioned the brûle yet. For the sake of completeness, it is a genuine Liègois invention: a coin of 4 sols. It may have been meant as a replacement for the real, with a value fixed in sols.

I've also noticed that Spanish Netherlands tends to use French names (one coin from Namur issued as 2 L(iards), is this correct?

In Dutch language areas (e.g. Flanders) people would use Dutch names. In French language areas (e.g. Liège, Namur, Luxembourg) they would use French names. Since the nobility was largely French-speaking (Charles V was the last ruler who spoke Dutch as a first language), official documents tend to be French. As the language problem exacerbated, even low level administrative documents were French only (a Flemish farmer could be arrested, tried and hanged without anyone speaking a word of Dutch to him, so he wouldn't even know what he was accused of). It is good form to use both languages one way or another in an international forum.

Peter

[Figleaf]

Swedish, or rather Danish, snapphanar were more respectable than mere highwaymen.

Maybe similar to Greek Kleftes? One man's freedom fighter is another man's thief?

Peter

[KennyisaG]

You're right about the real system, Spanish Netherlands didn't use the Patagon during Karl V's time because it didn't exist. They used the Real (1506-1556) instead. I see courtes, florins, patards, and "blancs" used during this era, what values did they hold against the real? You were right by mentioning brules, and I imagine they had a system of their own like you mention.

The briquet also used mites and patards, now we know that 12 mites are in a patard, but how many patards are in a briquet?

Ever heard of an albertine, and know the value of it? It's strange how the Ecu was worth 15 stuivers although larger than the 48 stuiver patagon.