A thaler in Austria

[KennyisaG]

For the past year and a half I have been doing some extensive research with little results: how many kreuzer made up a thaler before the 1752 convention? It is understood that a thaler after 1752 is worth 576 pfenning (copper) = 144 kreuzer landmunze (copper and billon) = 120 conventionskreuzer (silver) = 1 conventionsthaler = 1/2 ducat (gold); however I cannot fully comprehend the value of an old thaler.

Using a thaler with 87.5% fineness and 28.82g (~25.22g), I used the composition of a 1550's 6 kreuzer with 50% fineness and 2.75g. This comes out to be 16 in one thaler, meaning a thaler is worth 96 kreuzer. However, a kreuzer from 1630's (at 50% fineness and 2.2g)  shows 72 kreuzer to the thaler. Other denominations at 15 and 30 kreuzer show that the thaler was also worth 120 kreuzer for a time before the conventionsthaler.

Anyone know the right value for a pre-convention thaler, or have I been doing poor research?

[Figleaf]

Am travelling now, so no access to my library. First, you have to make a difference between Northern German (Prussia) and Southern German (Austria) coins. Second, coins were tariffed by several monetary conventions (monetary unions, much like the euro, leading up to a unified currency in all of Germany).

chrisild has the book that explains it all (Auf Heller und Pfennig). He should be able to firm up the above.

Peter

[KennyisaG]

This is correct, but the northern Germans tended to use groschen (mariengroschen, gutegroschen) and albus; in fact I'm not sure they used kreuzer at all. Krause has mentions of gulden worth 2/3 thalers, but the silver gulden did not exist as a monetary unit until the early 1800's.

[Levantiner]

The relationship between the denominations didn't change  only the silver standards changed in the 18th century. As you go back in time it gets really messy.   they seemed to have switched from one mark to another and changed finess  regularly.

Austrian  instruction 17 july 1742

Thaler = 2 Guilden= 120 Kreutzer.    Thaler = 28.82 grams of875 silver



Instruction 7 November 1750         
Thaler = 2 Guilden= 120 Kreutzer.     Thaler  reduced in fineness to 10 to the Vienna mark( aroundt 12 to the cologne mark)

Austro-bavarian Monetary convention 21 sept 1753

Thaler = 2 Guilden= 120 Kreutzer.   thaler now 10 to the cologne mark     833 standard silver 28.06 grams

Source Eypeltauer    Corpus Nummorum Regni Mariae Theresiae

wiener mark =281 grams


A book that may help more is Markus A. Denzel's Handbook of world exchange rates, 1590 -1914  I have a copy so if you can be specific about what you want to know ( particularly dates)  I will see what I can find in the book.

[Figleaf]

Here's the sequence in South Germany (source: Auf Heller und Pfennig.)

Date	Legal basis	Jurisdiction	Standard	Tariff
1748	Münzinstruktion	Austria	Konventionsthaler	120 kreuzer
1753	Münzkonvention	Austria, Bavaria	Konventionsgulden	60 kreuzer
1754	Rheinischer Gulden	Bavaria	Rheinischer Gulden	60 kreuzer
1755	Kronenthaler-Fuß	Austrian Netherlands	Kronenthaler	162 kreuzer
1761	24-Gulden-Fuß	All Southern Germany	Konventionsthaler	144 kreuzer

Take into account that a thaler = 2 gulden.

Austria took the lead in 1753 with measures to reform its currency to finance the exhausting seven years' war basically pitting Prussia and its allies against Austria and its allies. Prussia developed its own monetary standard (Graumannische Fuß). The Austrian standard was adopted by its former political competitor, Bavaria.

As Austria slowly lost the war, its monetary standard deteriorated, not affecting Bavaria. Bavaria and its allies held on to the original values, creating a Rheinischer Gulden, struck everywhere in Southern Germany, except Austria. In Austria, a semi-Austrian coin replaced the Konventionsgulden, as it was quite underweight - much of the war was fought on the territory of the Austrian Netherlands (now covering much of Belgium.) Austria started minting its own minor coins on the Kronenthaler standard, but according to Konventions fractions. Thus, an Austrian 12 kreuzer piece was the equivalent of a Southern German 10 kreuzer coin and a 7½ kreuzer Austrian was 9 kreuzer (2 gute groschen or 3 Mariengroschen) in the rest of Southern Germany. After peace was concluded, Southern Germany converged on what was called the 24-Gulden standard, most of Northern Germany introduced the Southern German Konventionsfuß also, but not the Kronenthaler by setting a standard tariff for the Graumann coins. Until the wars of Napoleon, the Thaler of 144 kreuzer and the Gulden of 72 kreuzer could be spent in almost all of Germany.

Peter

[Levantiner]

I think there is some confusion here  the seven years war started in 1754.   The Wars of the Austrian Succession seem to have run into the Seven year war.   Yes the Austrians had debased their currency but it was predominantly due to the succession wars that had occurred prior to the institution of the Austro-Bavarian monetary convention in 1753. Austrian  thalers ( with the exception of the Austrian Netherlands Kronenthaler; which was a higher silver standard) remained the same standard til around 1857.

[Figleaf]

No confusion on my side. I wrote: "to finance". I order to attract new financing, Austria had to put its currency on a sound footing. This remained an almost constant worry until the end of the first world war. The silver standard for the thalers was 833⅓ in 1748-1838, but the Kronenthaler was 836.805. Again, no confusion. I wrote "underweight".

Peter

[Levantiner]

Your wording was confusing then.  As you presented it in future tense rather than past. It was the Succession wars that caused the financial strain. Austria didn't plan to fund the seven years war, unless they had a Crystal ball. Austria actually ultimately  beat Prussia ( re Prague) in the Seven years war. Predominantly due to Austria rearming after being beaten by Prussia( in Silesia 1741) in the Succession wars.  It was France ( one of Austria's adversary in the succession wars) who fought on Austria's side in the seven years war that came out of it worse off.  According to Eypeltauer "Corpus Nummorum Regni Mariae Theresiae" the  Kronenthaler, by Verordnung 19 Juli 1755, was 873 standard Silver and weighed  29.44 grams( raw weight not Fine)  Which reference puts the Kronenthaler at 836 standard and when?

Edit:

833⅓ in 1748-1838

all my references have 833 standard until 1858  not 1838 and I understood the standard started in 1853 ( austro- bavarian Monetary convention)not  1748.     

I go back to my original assertion your post is confusing actually as I do more research to work out what you were saying It is extremely confusing!!!!

[Figleaf]

I don't understand why you are getting so prickly over this. Wars need financing. In later years, it was called war bonds, in earlier years the big bankers made the loans. Even not so sophisticated investors will want their risk minimised, therefore the government budget in some sort of order. Nothing crystal ballish about it. Just common sense. Of course, the budget was out of whack because of the previous war and if you want to call that the cause of the reforms it's no skin off my back. After a war, it's about digesting inflation, either by lowering the standard (i.e. adjusting the coins to prices) or by increasing unemployment (i.e. adjusting income to goods available.)

In 1838, the Dresdner Konvention set the Vereinsthaler at 900 with a Thaler of 105 kreuzer. I could also have mentioned the 1837 Münchener Münzvertrag of the Süddeutscher Münzverein, but that covered only the South. The 1858 treaty of the Süddeutscher Münzverein was not about the silver content, but about the standard coin, deserting the Thaler and adopting the Gulden as standard.

Peter

[Levantiner]

I am taking an austrian focus. All the references I have read put down the devaluation of the thaler to the financial troubles caused by the succession wars.  Not to finance the, then, future seven years war. Further research confirms that in 1750 the silver standard was dropped to 832 parts per 1000. It was raised to 833  with the Austro Bavarian monetary convention  in 1753. and it remained at that standard ( Except for the Kronenthaler) until 1858.    I repeat: the Austrian Habsburgs did not reduce the thaler standard to cope with the Seven years war...that war started in 1754 as you casually suggested.   War bonds may well have been issued but they didn't try to do any more financing by debasement after 1753.  Another spin off from the succession wars was the changing of the laws in 1752 to allow the free minting of thalers and their export to  the ottoman empire. In the year preceding this legalisation of export  the agio( some spell it "aggio") had been 10-15 kreutzer per thaler, the fines the Austrians  awarded to offenders just didn't deter the profit.  A banker , always assumed to Count von Fries,  recommended the legalisation as one way of redressing the negative trade balance with the levant and as a means( among many) to help recover the precarious financial situation created by the succession wars.  This all happened before the start of the seven years war, and certainly the RDR wasn't planning another war at that time, That was Frederick the great( who also started the succession wars)

[Figleaf]

I am taking an austrian focus.

Which may explain some of the differences, as I took a Southern German focus, e.g. I am not sure if the Dresdner Konvention covered Austria. It certainly covered Southern and Northern German states. Wikipedia (lemma in German) seems to suggest that Austria adopted the standard of 1837 only in 1857 by the Wiener Münzvertrag. The English versions of these lemmas imply much the same thing. See also this lemma (in German, reference to the English version.)

@Kenny: in the aftermath of the wars of Napoleon, coins were divided into standard coins and token coins. Standard coins could in theory be freely minted and melted. Token coins could only be exchanged for standard coins. In practice, only the highest value silver coin and gold coins were standard coins. Smaller coins were token coins.

This was in fact a legalisation of an old practice, that would see minor coins underweight and of diminished silver content - even though more silver coins would have the correct weight and fineness in relation to the unit of account. Therefore, the calculations you make are not necessarily an indication of relative value (what is this coin worth in terms of a higher denomination in the same series), but more likely an indication of how much the smaller coin was underweight.

Peter

[KennyisaG]

Here's the sequence in South Germany (source: Auf Heller und Pfennig.)

Date	Legal basis	Jurisdiction	Standard	Tariff
1748	Münzinstruktion	Austria	Konventionsthaler	120 kreuzer
1753	Münzkonvention	Austria, Bavaria	Konventionsgulden	60 kreuzer
1754	Rheinischer Gulden	Bavaria	Rheinischer Gulden	60 kreuzer
1755	Kronenthaler-Fuß	Austrian Netherlands	Kronenthaler	162 kreuzer
1761	24-Gulden-Fuß	All Southern Germany	Konventionsthaler	144 kreuzer

Take into account that a thaler = 2 gulden.

Austria took the lead in 1753 with measures to reform its currency to finance the exhausting seven years' war basically pitting Prussia and its allies against Austria and its allies. Prussia developed its own monetary standard (Graumannische Fuß). The Austrian standard was adopted by its former political competitor, Bavaria.

As Austria slowly lost the war, its monetary standard deteriorated, not affecting Bavaria. Bavaria and its allies held on to the original values, creating a Rheinischer Gulden, struck everywhere in Southern Germany, except Austria. In Austria, a semi-Austrian coin replaced the Konventionsgulden, as it was quite underweight - much of the war was fought on the territory of the Austrian Netherlands (now covering much of Belgium.) Austria started minting its own minor coins on the Kronenthaler standard, but according to Konventions fractions. Thus, an Austrian 12 kreuzer piece was the equivalent of a Southern German 10 kreuzer coin and a 7½ kreuzer Austrian was 9 kreuzer (2 gute groschen or 3 Mariengroschen) in the rest of Southern Germany. After peace was concluded, Southern Germany converged on what was called the 24-Gulden standard, most of Northern Germany introduced the Southern German Konventionsfuß also, but not the Kronenthaler by setting a standard tariff for the Graumann coins. Until the wars of Napoleon, the Thaler of 144 kreuzer and the Gulden of 72 kreuzer could be spent in almost all of Germany.

Peter

Hi Peter, this seems like the best response to my question. The thaler changed weight throughout time, but the kreuzer system was still 120 to the thaler before the conventionsthaler. Levantiner mentions the thaler valued at 120 kreuzer (144 kreuzer landmunze) in 1742, makes sense, seeing kreuzer landmunze issued 1745 and up.

Before 1745, looking through Bavarian coins it seems that denominations were issued in kreuzer landgrosch and kreuzer landminz, with 144 landgrosch / 120 landminz in a thaler? With a 1/4 thaler with the same dimensions this should be correct, but I'm not sure. Like many of you mentioned, the denominations haven't seen much mobility except for the thalers themselves, changing purities constantly. I'm sure that the kreuzer relative to the thaler has changed as well, if I can get specific years when how many kreuzer made up a thaler before 1742 (for ex. 1742-1809 144 kreuzer landmunze = 1 thaler), a lot of questions can be answered. I say 1742 because the thaler stayed relatively constant after the convention.

Good work everyone.