1000G Netherlands Indies 1815 (remainder) - seeking authentication

[thelawnet]

I am looking to get this note, which I have just purchased, authenticated:



Anyone able to help?

[Figleaf]

WOW. That is a super picture of a super note. I checked the picture against what little I have on these banknotes and I can't find a reason why it shouldn't be genuine. I know little about these banknotes so I have given the URL of the pictures to a member of the staff of the Geldmuseum. Unfortunately, these people are drowning in work, but if there is a reaction I'll let you know.

Peter

[thelawnet]

WOW. That is a super picture of a super note. I checked the picture against what little I have on these banknotes and I can't find a reason why it shouldn't be genuine. I know little about these banknotes so I have given the URL of the pictures to a member of the staff of the Geldmuseum. Unfortunately, these people are drowning in work, but if there is a reaction I'll let you know.

Peter

Thanks.

I may send it off to one of the paper money grading companies if I don't find someone who is able to confirm for me. I think the cost is about $20. There is reason to believe it not genuine only in that forgeries are reported of this note. I did buy it from an IBNS dealer, so that's something on the positive side

One of the main things would be the printing and I guess the paper (which as you can see from the scan is very thick and has a nice pattern in it, which is something I have not seen on paper money before). I know it is sometimes possible to identify forgeries because of the way the ink is on the page - you can see that something has been created by an inkjet printer. Looking at the ink on this one it doesn't look like that, but I really don't have any expertise.

I paid only €280. I believe I could resell it for at least €700, although I'm not interested in selling it, as it's great to hold own such a historic note - it is 100+ years older than anything else in my collection. Anything older (from the Louis Napoleon, VOC, or UEIC periods) would cost at least €10,000. Also this note would cost thousands of euros in issued form - the unsigned remainders are much cheaper.

[BC Numismatics]

Thelawnet,
  That note is definitely genuine,as it is very hard to forge the embossing on that.

Well done on this super find.

You should post it up on http://www.mycoinpictures.com & http://www.zeno.ru .

Aidan.

[Figleaf]

Message from the Money Museum in Utrecht, Mr. Erik van der Kam (my translation). I have asked him for an email address of Mr. De Zoete.

I have compared the note with one that is sure to be genuine. My conclusions are as follows. This note has not been completed. The printing is somewhat "fatty" compared to our note (whch has also not been completed), but the fonts used are the same. The edge is composed with the printed musical notes of Fleischmann also used by Joh. Enchedé for the first banknotes of De Nederlandsche Bank, the so-called Robins. This also looks reasonably good, albeit somewhat "fatty", so that some finer detail has filled with ink.

The paper is totally different. The notes are known to have a watermark of some horizontal or vertical lines spread over the note and an embossed crowned W. The note in the photograph seems to be printed on paper without watermark with an embossed climbing lion.

If this is a rejected test, Joh. Enschedé will have examples in its archive, as at the time no other printer would have all the fonts and the Fleischmann musical notes necessary to produce it. However, it could also be a forgery, an attempt to make a discovery note with a different sort of paper. To make sure, I would recommend contacting Mr. Johan de Zoete, keeper of the Museum Enschedé. Their archive is very complete, so if this is a rejected test, he should know.

[thelawnet]

Thank you very much!

I just called the museum and spoke to Mr. De Zoete. He said the Money Museum have sent him the note already, but he is very busy finishing a book at the moment and will have a look at the note next week. I guess he will send his reply back to the Money Museum who will then send it to you.

This is the only other image I have found of this note

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=/lotfinderimages/d20928/d2092873x.jpg
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=2092873 Described only as 'green text on cream paper'

It is too small to really say much, but as regards your reply, the paper of this note and lack of a watermark are quite major issues. I am inclined to say it is a modern fake at this point.

[thelawnet]

Have you heard back yet? I have a few more days until my time runs out to try and get the money back from paypal.

[Figleaf]

I had a mail from the keeper of the museum, saying: I will need more time to look into this issue. At the moment, I have no time at all to research this note. I have flagged your question in my email list, so that it will re-appear when time allows. (my translation)

Peter

[thelawnet]

Here's the note, from a full set of nine, which sold for $17,000 last year in Indonesia:



It does look like mine is either fake or very rare. Probably the former.

[Figleaf]

Considering where you bought it and the price you paid, it being a fake is indeed more likely. Nevertheless, this is another super thread, very educational and most excellent pictures. Thank you.

Peter

[thelawnet]

I noticed a seller selling some notes on ebay.

The first is a purported example of the 1815 1000 gulden:




The second is a 1 gulden of the 1846 Silver Receipts. These replaced the copper receipts at a rate of 6 copper gulden to 5 silver gulden.




I don't have any good-sized pictures of the 1 gulden, but the 5, 10, 25 and 100 are here: http://www.javaauction.info/catalog_pilih.php?mode=pilih&id=DA&halm=1

My obervations:

* the paper on both looks to be same as the paper on my specimen on both notes. This would point to all three being forgeries from the same source.
* the obverse of the 1 gulden is crude and the circle around the 1 is overinked, and similarly many of the lines are too fat
* the '1s' on the back I think is a fantasy. The note is supposed to have a watermark of 1s and lines, but these are over printed not true watermarks.
* I am not sure what the reverse of the 1000 gulden is supposed to be, but the one above is odd
* my KUKI says that the 1000 gulden is made from 'kertas bergaris', which is I think 'ribbed' paper
* the lion on the 1000 gulden is a sad specimen.
* there are various small differences between the two 1000 guldens in the printing. So they are not from the same plates.

Clearly both the above notes are fake. They are being sold at €1600 and €400 respectively.

The seller may be selling them in good faith, he told me of the 1000g:

"I collect notes all 20 years,mostly from the Netherlands and colonies,because I was working 15 years in holland and I like them very much.This note was one of my colleague( in Holland),when he wants to by this tipe note in UNC condition he solded this note to my friend(he is also collect notes) hier in Hungary.I buyed from him 4 years ago.Solong is this note is my property."

[thelawnet]

I got a reply from Mr. de Zoete:

I am sorry to inform you that I am not an expert and cannot verify banknotes as for true or false.
I also can't find out if any variations were printed.
Kind regards,
Johan de Zoete
Curator Museum Enschedé

[Figleaf]

That's a disappointment. It sounds like he got cold feet. I'd go with what the Geldmuseum expert said, which IMO casts considerable doubts on the note. At least you have done your very best to have the note certified.

Peter

[thelawnet]

I found a note of similar description here:
http://www.patrickp.nl/Te%20koop/indonesia.pdf
(page 36).

Unfortunately the author, who has a nice website, didn't respond to my email asking for more information about it. I guess I should learn to speak Dutch.

But it seems to match my note.

The seller has refused to take a return.

[Figleaf]

The note on page 36 of PatrickP's site is marked as a forgery: "Betreft een moderne vervalsing, inclusief droogdrukstempel" - this is a modern forgery, including the dry printed seal and his inventory number also contains the word "vals" - forgery.

Peter