Author Topic: Paper money, yet not banknotes  (Read 4898 times)

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Online Henk

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2020, 02:51:21 PM »
I see your first example is dated 1862. That's the very early years of this type of encasement.

It is not dated 1862. This date refers to the year the emitting firm was established. The encasement dates from the 1920's

Offline stef

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2020, 06:01:43 PM »
I thought I'd wake this thread up after so many years. I found this interesting piece of French encased postage and it seemed the right place to post it.

Mr. Google has let me down again. I'm not really getting good translations so I'm not sure who issued it. I thought it could be roughly dated from the stamp itself. Any help in identifying it would be appreciated.                                             
Here is an ad from the French newspaper Le Figaro (19 August 1919) for L. Vaïsse. The first French agency for confidential inquiries, if my translation is correct. Seems to be some sort of detective agency in the business world. This kind of tokens were in use from 1920 to 1923-24.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2020, 09:18:37 PM »
Here is an ad from the French newspaper Le Figaro (19 August 1919) for L. Vaïsse. The first French agency for confidential inquiries, if my translation is correct. Seems to be some sort of detective agency in the business world. This kind of tokens were in use from 1920 to 1923-24.


Many thanks, Stef.

These types of businesses were known as intelligence agencies in the US in the 19th century. In census records the proprietors were often described as "intelligencers" I'm not sure the two dealt with the same exact businesses, but I think they're close. I have a counterstamped quarter with one such company's name stamped on it located in St. Louis.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 10:28:40 PM »
The first French agency for confidential inquiries, if my translation is correct.

Almost. In this context, it is foremost, rather than first.

This kind of tokens were in use from 1920 to 1923-24.

About 1916 to 1924, I'd say.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline stef

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2020, 11:41:34 PM »
Almost. In this context, it is foremost, rather than first.

About 1916 to 1924, I'd say.

Peter
Yes, thanks for „foremost“ instead of „first". I studied French in high school, many many years ago.


The patent of Edouard Bouchaud-Praceiq for the encased stamp tokens is from March 1920 („Sorte de jeton composite
comme monnaie courante et susceptible d’applications en publicité“). Stamps were used before, for example in envelopes or booklets (carnets).

Offline Afrasi

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2020, 09:04:47 AM »
An African example (Picture: Saive). Ilavoamena = half Voamena = 1/48

Offline brandm24

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2020, 01:17:04 AM »
Although this piece displays an Italian stamp it's actually issued by a French hotel in Nice. From what I understand, Nice is so close to the Italian border that some French merchants used Italian stamps. I would think that would be true of Italian issuers (if there are any) sometimes using French stamps as well.

According to the source that listed this example the piece dates to the 1920's. Would anyone know if this era's encased postage had a value attached to it or was it simply used for advertising? I've actually seen a few contemporary American issues that were used for advertising purposes and had no value attached to them.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2020, 06:15:35 AM »
Nice, Nizza in Italian, changed hands between France and Italy a number of times, though it is at heart an Italian town. The last change took place only in 1860 and the people of Nice would probably have counted with the possibility that it would one day revert to Italy again. Nevertheless, the stamp would not be honoured by the French post office and Italy is not really in walking distance of the city centre.

I know of one case where an Italian town is heavily French-oriented: Aosta. To go to France from there is even more difficult, since there are some mountains in the way.

The value of the encased stamps was the denomination of the stamp. In theory, once the scarcity of coins was over, you could break out the stamp and use it without a loss of money. In practice, I suspect that an Italian stamp would pass in Nice, but travelling to Italy to spend it would cost a whole lot more than 5 centesimi (about a halfpenny in those days.)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline stef

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2020, 08:52:19 AM »
Although this piece displays an Italian stamp it's actually issued by a French hotel in Nice. From what I understand, Nice is so close to the Italian border that some French merchants used Italian stamps. I would think that would be true of Italian issuers (if there are any) sometimes using French stamps as well.

According to the source that listed this example the piece dates to the 1920's. Would anyone know if this era's encased postage had a value attached to it or was it simply used for advertising? I've actually seen a few contemporary American issues that were used for advertising purposes and had no value attached to them.

Bruce
Very curious example. It exists with with French stamps too. I couldn't find any information about the reason behind the usage of Italian stamps. You can see also the trademark of the producer - FYP ("Fallait Y Penser").


The encased stamps circulated as small change but were not cost effective for the issuer. The producer required a minimum quantity of 1000 items - 10c per piece for stamped and 7.5c for colored tokens (without the value of the stamp). Obviously, for the issuer the possibility to advertise its business was more important.


Most of the information about these tokens is in French but you can find an article in this journal in English (p. 99).


Offline FosseWay

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2020, 08:55:57 AM »
Here's my contribution - an Italian 10 centesimi with advert for Pirelli tyres. Issued 1919-1923 according to a seller on the web, though I have no independent verification of that.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2020, 11:19:14 AM »
Nice, Nizza in Italian, changed hands between France and Italy a number of times, though it is at heart an Italian town. The last change took place only in 1860 and the people of Nice would probably have counted with the possibility that it would one day revert to Italy again. Nevertheless, the stamp would not be honoured by the French post office and Italy is not really in walking distance of the city centre.

I know of one case where an Italian town is heavily French-oriented: Aosta. To go to France from there is even more difficult, since there are some mountains in the way.

The value of the encased stamps was the denomination of the stamp. In theory, once the scarcity of coins was over, you could break out the stamp and use it without a loss of money. In practice, I suspect that an Italian stamp would pass in Nice, but travelling to Italy to spend it would cost a whole lot more than 5 centesimi (about a halfpenny in those days.)

Peter
It's a bit of a surprise to me that an Italian stamp would be accepted anywhere in France, but in Nice it might be so. Foreign stamps aren't accepted anywhere here although Canadian money was once accepted in border towns, especially in Maine and New York. In our many travels as kids we visited Canada many times and I well remember seeing Canadian / American money used interchangeably. I doubt that would be the case today.

Those "mountains in the way" aren't just foothills so that would definitely be an impediment. ;D

Very curious example. It exists with with French stamps too. I couldn't find any information about the reason behind the usage of Italian stamps. You can see also the trademark of the producer - FYP ("Fallait Y Penser").


The encased stamps circulated as small change but were not cost effective for the issuer. The producer required a minimum quantity of 1000 items - 10c per piece for stamped and 7.5c for colored tokens (without the value of the stamp). Obviously, for the issuer the possibility to advertise its business was more important.


Most of the information about these tokens is in French but you can find an article in this journal in English (p. 99).



Thanks for the good information and the link, stef, and for pointing out the  maker's trademark. I had difficulty seeing it.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2020, 11:27:23 AM »
Here's my contribution - an Italian 10 centesimi with advert for Pirelli tyres. Issued 1919-1923 according to a seller on the web, though I have no independent verification of that.

That's a nice example, but I wonder what material the protective cover is made from. It shows wrinkling so must be thin and flexible.

This would draw a lot of attention from a collector of automobile memorabilia.

Bruce
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Offline brandm24

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 02:07:25 PM »
I mentioned in Post #21 that I'd seen some modern US encased stamps and just recently came across this one. While the other small number I've seen were for advertising only...having no access to the stamp... this one was good for ten cents with no connection to the value of the stamp itself.

This example was issued for the centennial of the city of Syracuse, NY in 1948 by the sheet metal firm of Nicholas Korb. I'm not sure who would redeem it for a Roosevelt dime...at any centennial event, in trade at participating city businesses, or by Korb himself maybe. While the stamp was originally issued by the government to honor President Roosevelt who died in 1945, that wouldn't be the case here. This piece was likely intended to be a souvenir of the city's celebration.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2020, 05:20:00 PM »
Sympathetic! The money grabbers get 10 cents for 5, scoring a 100% profit; the souvenir hunters get a nice souvenir at practically no cost and Korb has an ultra-cheap ad campaign. Everybody wins. Brass must have been cheap in those days (spent munition cases).

I wonder what private individuals would use sheet metal for. You'd have to be pretty handy to turn it into something useful. Maybe Korb would also sell half-finished objects, like brass cutlery, ready to be silvered or zinc pipes for the do-it-yourself genius?

Another thing that amused me was the date 1848. According to Wikipedia, the Syracuse in the US was incorporated as a city in 1847 and as a village in 1825. It smells a bit like "hey, we are at peace, let's have a party". Nothing wrong with parties, but the thought was good for a smile.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

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Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 08:22:02 PM »
Well, I'm properly outraged by the discrepancy. It could be that they city elders decided to incorporate the city on December 31st, 1847 after many rounds of adult beverages, but didn't make it official until late on New Years Day, 1848 after recovering from their hangovers. In any case, I'll compose a pointed letter to the present city council laced with harsh language...after lunch ;D

I couldn't find anything about Korb, but did discover that he also issued encased stamps in denominations of 1, 2, and 3 cents. Same size, composition and wording as the 5 cent example.

Bruce
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