horse and bull jital

Started by mtayal, November 19, 2008, 05:26:51 PM

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mtayal

Hi,

Got hold of a bunch of old coins. Please help identify this coin.

Regards,
Mahesh

Rangnath

You might want to check out http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,395.0.html.  Do a search on "horse and bull" in the area under the date at the top and you'll find a few coins that might resemble yours. 
The greatest pleasure in them, I think, is seeing them upside down and not recognizing at all what one has and then turning the coin until the bull or the horse is revealed.

Richie

Overlord

I see nothing on the horseman side, but the side with the bull (when rotated 270 degrees) seems to show "Sa"-"Ma"-"Sa" over the bull---Shams-ud-din Iltutmish?


mtayal

Overlord, Thank you for the link. Fascinating history. I have been to Qutub Minar dozens of time but never knew there is a grave of Shams-Ud-Din Iltutmish. Next time I visit Qutub, I will take fresh pictures and post on board.

Mahesh

Rangnath

I would very much appreciate the posts Mahesh. No doubt, it would some life to the name of Shams-Ud-Din Iltutmish.
richie

Oesho

The legend above the bull reads Shri Samanta and no part of the name of Shams al-Din Iltutmish.


mtayal

Osheo, This is interesting observation. Do you think it could be a Samantdeva coin?

Oesho

#8
The coins of Samanta Deva are fine silver coins struck during the period 850-1000AD. The coins become much imitated and also the fineness became lower and lower until they were of almost of pure copper.
Those debased silver and copper coins are anonymous post Shahi coins struck for a long time (900-1200AD) in N.W.-India.

To enlighten the above subject, two jitals of Iltutmish:

Two examples of bull & horseman jitals of Shams al-Din Iltutmish
(AH607-633/AD1210-1235)
D45 Billon Jital, obv.: bull to left, above Nagari legend suritana sri
samasadina
Rev.: Horseman to right, above sri hamira.
D53 Billon Jital, mint: Dehli. Obv.: al-Sultan al A'zam Shams al-dunya wa'l
Din/Dehli
Rev.: Horseman to right; Iltutmish at right; al-Sultan above.

Rangnath

Can I generalize and say that the series should be called "bull and horse", not Horse and bull, because the Bull is usually Obverse and the Horse is usually reverse?

Further, can I generalize and say that the pattern on the Obverse has persisted for centuries while the "current" ruler might be found on the reverse?

richie

Oesho

Whether it was put it in alphabetic order or because the earliest coins had the name of the ruler above the bull, the fact is that the expression used for these jitals is generalized as Bull & Horseman, invariably on which side the name of the ruler is found.

Rangnath

I think I'm getting this. 
In the following coin, the Bull side, the reference to Samantadeva is given (I think).  On the reverse, the Horse side, the name of the ruler is provided.  I can't read it, but because the coin appears to be largely copper, I would guess this to be a post Shahi coin, after 900 AD and before 1200 AD.  Am I close?
richie

Oesho

Richie, this is a coin of Muhammad bin Sam. His name is over the bull and Sri Hamirah on the reverse in front of the horse.

Overlord

These coins are not easy to work with, at least for me. Sometimes I feel like writing a sequel to Deyell's book---Living without Attribution  :P

Rangnath

Thanks Overlord, I can relate to that!
OK.
Perhaps I can see the bottom half of the ma and ha and most of the "MA" and definitely I can see the "DA" in sri mahaMADA, and the SAMA in SAMA


I have tried seeing Sri Hamirah (the Amir) in Nagari on the reverse, the horse side.   If a part of the "Sri" is sideways and part is off the flan, and the "ha" is sideways and part is off the flan (making the letter look like an English U), and the "Ma" is sideways on the right side and the "Ra" is barely visible, maybe I can see it. 

I had been trying to magically read "Sri Samantadeva" as "Sri Mahamada", hoping that Medieval Nagari would somehow explain the descrepancy!

Now I have to back and rexamine my other Horse and Bull coins. 


And before I forget, thanks Oesho.  Obviously, I am no longer in the complete bliss that ignorance gives.
richie