Please Identify My Trial Copper Uniface Crown Pieces

[beeston1816]

Hi,

I am not sure if I am posting this in the right place so if not, could a monitor please move this topic to a relevant space?
Right, well I have just recently purchased two rather strange looking pieces which I can only describe as uniface copper crown pieces. I do not know much about these so if anyone knows anything about these at all, the help would be greatly appreciated. All I know is that the person I purchased these from bought them from an elderly gentleman's estate. I have no idea how old these pieces are i.e. if they are contemporary to the designs shown or whether they were struck at a later date, but the copper appears to have an aged look to it. I have attached photos for your consideration in the hope someone can shed some light on what I have here!

[beeston1816]

I could not attach photos as they were too large but I have provided a link to jpegbay where they can be seen

http://jpegbay.com/gallery/002770922-.html#1

[capnbirdseye]

They look like trial strikes or something of that nature,  George III crown and Q.Victoria crown by the looks of it.  I would think if original from the Royal mint they would be very valuable but something looks not quite right with the crudeness of the copper used but I could be wrong. it looks like they were cut from a larger sheet using a gas torch as there are signs of molten copper droplets on the back
I'm sure someone here will know more than me as it's not my field of interest

[beeston1816]

Thanks for the reply Vic.  I have had a response from the BM today having sent them an inquiry. The response I got was:

"These appear to be uniface copper electrotype copies, or casts, of the reverse designs for silver crowns of George III and of Victoria respectively. Rather than having being cast in the round, they appear to have been made against a flat surface. I could try and explain the electrotype process, but I find that Wikipedia explains it all rather well.

I'm afraid I am not in a position to speculate why they were made. A number of institutions and manufacturers (including the British Museum) had the facility for producing electrotypes of coins in the 19th century, both for display and for sale to collectors."

I guess the next question is is there a market for this kind of thing or is it just a curio? It certainly got my attention!

[Figleaf]

Anybody can make an electrotype of a coin, so there's no way to know why or when they were made. Electrotypes have no commercial value. Unfortunately, the most common reason for making electrotypes is to make a fake coin. With electrotypes you can create your own rarities or imitate a coin in an expensive metal in a cheap metal.

Peter

[beeston1816]

Hi Peter, thanks for your input.

Whilst I would agree that there is no way to know why these electrotypes were made, the when can be determined to some extent by the toning/age of the piece. As the guy at the BM pointed out to me along with a coin dealer, these are quite likely over 100 years old. As for 'no commercial value' I would have to strongly agree as I personally have sold a number of them before, many achieving prices in the £100s, an example of a Cromwell 6d going for £425 for example. I am merely looking for some suggestions as to their value, perhaps from someone who buys electrotypes or knows the market. No there may be no book price but they do generate considerable interest from past experience, I just wanted an idea of what I should ask for them,

Michael

[akona20]

I would ask for a second opinion on what you have here.

It is quite possibly an electrotype but there are other possibilities. The work is very good no matter what it is. Yes it can be said that many electrotypes are also very good especially when don in museum work places but I have worked with electrotypes recently for certain demonstrations in both silver and copper and produced nothing like this.

Perhaps a discussion with one of the really big auction houses with the piece in hand would help.

I will advise that I have seen relatively similar pieces described as trial die strikes on waste metal and possibly occurred when aligning a new die. You will then get one impression only on a scrap blank.

[Figleaf]

Sorry, I don't understand. I thought you wanted these items identified and now you say you sold electrotypes before. So why didn't you recognise them as electrotypes? Furthermore, there is no way such items can be dated. "Aged look" means nothing. As you know, electrotypes don't look like new copper when they are made.

Peter

[akona20]

But you can treat electrotypes to look like new. That is to say the end product is treated to look like a coin that has been cleaned rather than like a standard electrotype.

[beeston1816]

"Sorry, I don't understand. I thought you wanted these items identified and now you say you sold electrotypes before. So why didn't you recognise them as electrotypes? Furthermore, there is no way such items can be dated. "Aged look" means nothing. As you know, electrotypes don't look like new copper when they are made.

Peter"

I wanted them identified as I had an idea but was not completely sure. Yes I have dealt with electrotypes before, but not in this stage of the process if they are indeed electrotypes at all. From observing the pieces, they are of some age and this is what was suggested by the guy at the BM. As mentioned after your comment, copper can be treated after if desired.

[andyg]

I have a problem believing that these are official - because there is a quarter century gap between when the designs were used on the coinage.

Also - Could someone explain how these were made?
I would have expected one side to be plain - not have the design showing through?

[Figleaf]

The process is explained here.

There is no need for a mint to electrotype coins. In the past, museums would sell them, but the copies were found to be too deceptive for the unaware.

Peter