Discussion: Protest against re-issuance of Earlier Issued Commemorative coins

[Abhay]

Just now, I received this mail through an Auction House:

Dear Patron,

Mr. Ravi Somani is a Delhi base coin collector. As you know Kolkata mint has started re-booking of Sant Tukaram and other commemorative sets, Which we feel is totally wrong, so he have already filed a case against kolkata mint in Delhi High court and seeking Stay against the re-issuance, so he need your help if you can give me any information about Numismatics rules or any notification communication from any part of the world which helps him to strengthen the case that Commemorative coins are not to be re-issued after several years.

He has requested to direct write a letter to the mint or to send him your objection letter to him, his address is
Ravi Somani
E 1 /12 Vasant Vihar
New Delhi - 110057
E-mail: ravisomani@yahoo.com


So, any help in this regard would be appreciated.

Abhay

[Abhay]

The copy of the letter written to Kolkata Mint:


To

The General Manager
Government Mint Kolkata
Alipore
Kolkata – 700 053
West Bengal

Re : Protest against re-issuance of Earlier Issued Commemorative coins of Sant Tuka Ram, Dr. Syama Prasad Mookerji and Sri Lal Bhadur Shastri

Dear Sir,

I am a Coin Collector of Republic of India and I collect all the Commemorative Coins issued by Government of India. I saw you advertisement in National Daily and I am shocked to note that your mint is re-issuing the Commemorative coins which were earlier issued by your mint about 10 years ago.

The Advertisement photo clearly shows that you are not making any changes in the coins issued earlier specially

a.       The Mint date still appears to be 2001, 2002 and 2004 only
b.      As per recent coins minted all coins after 2011 have the New Rupee Symbol, but your advertisement shows New rupee Symbol on new coins but not on Re-issue coins.
Commemorative Coins are issued to Commemorate a special occasion and these are issued in limited quantity ( as per order booked) only, during a limited period. All the Government of India Mints take booking for Commemorative coins for a limited time and produces the Sets as per orders booked, and generally orders are shipped after 8 months of close of booking date.

Why you have chosen to re-issue a Commemorative coin set after gap of nearly 10 years is beyond imagination, I am member of Coin club/association and all our members are deeply aggrieved by your such action, no where in the world commemorative coins are re-issued. Even in India apart from Kolkata Mint no other mint like Mumbai Mint or Hyderabad mint re-issued any old Commemorative coins till date so why only your mint is going out of the way to re-issue Commemorative coins after gap of nearly 10 years.

It surely shows lack of concept and defying the basic concept of Commemorative Coins which are collected by collectors like us only because of rarity and appreciation in value over the years. The main object of the Government Mint should be to promote the Coin Collectionin India and abroad but your such irresponsible actions and cheating the collectors who have earlier purchased these commemorative coins in original booking, will discourage collectors to book the commemorative coins as we all will loose faith in the rarity of Commemorative Coins.

I ask you to immediately stop re-issuance of Already Issued Commemorative coins and ensure that re-issuance of Commemorative coins takes place from Kolkata Mint.

I also ask you to reply to my following queries

1.      What is the meaning in your rules / regulations for –Commemorative Coins?
2.      Why you have chosen to re-issue the Already Issued commemorative coins after gap of 6 to 10 years?
3.      How many Proof Sets/ UNC sets were originally booked and supplied by your mint in original booking of
a.       SantTuka Ram
b.      Dr Syama Prasad Mookerji
c.       Sh Lal Bhadur Shastri
What was the booking price at that time for proof &Unc sets of above coins?
4.      What will be the difference between the coins issued earlier and the coins you are re-issuing after gap of 6 – 10 years ?
5.      Why you are charging 10 times the price of these coin sets compared to original booking price ?
6.      Please give your price working mechanism to arrive at the issue price?

Please treat it most urgent and reply with details as soon as possible, if I am not satisfied with your reply I might take legal action against your mint for fooling general public and collectors like me.


With regards




Name:
Address:

[dheer]

@Abhay, you just beat me into posting this

Well some points are valid ie what is the pricing mechanism to arrive at the price ...
Some are incorrect, no mint has done this in the past ... I may be wrong but there should be examples of re-strikes outside India as well ...
And in India Mumbai Mint has also done restrikes ...
Given the litigation, it would be interesting to see as to when the coins will actually be struck and reach the collectors hand

[repindia]

I have mixed feelings about this one.

Most of us here are collectors rather than dealers and for a collector the joy should be in just collecting with discretionary income. I just read a previous post in which there was a nice quote from TO on his blog on these lines. I am happy that sets like Tukaram which I could not buy before and then available at inflated prices which I could not justify buying it for. I am very happy that these sets can now be added to my collection.

On the other hand almost all of us have a profit motive too no matter what we pretend (we are after all human!) at the back of our mind and this has certainly reduced the value of our existing sets. Fortunately I did not buy too many for resale so am good! I can certainly feel that the dealers were the most aggrieved of the lot.

I am neutral to this development and don't think this affects me much. In fact I will be happy to be a defence witness if the case really takes wheels.

I don't like many of the mint's policies but this one actually helps newer collectors.

Please re-read TO's comments on the joy of collecting. I am wondering why he is not posting here.

[Abhay]

I agree with Repindia. For those, who have purchased the coins earlier, it is a loss. But who missed the earlier issues, it is an opportunity to purchase the coins at a reasonable price (as compared to present market price for the originally issued sets).

BUT, here we are talking about the Legal aspects of reissuing the Commemorative Coins.

As per Merriam - Webster Dictionary, the meaning of Commemorative is " intended as a commemoration; especially : issued in limited quantities for a relatively short period in commemoration of a person, place, or event <a commemorative stamp>"

Even Wikipedia defines Circulating Commemorative as "Circulating commemoratives are intended to be used for commerce, but the design will only be issued for a limited time, is intended to draw some attention to a specific event or person. Examples include the €2 commemorative coins, or U.S. 50 State Quarters."

So, legally, the Commemorative coins are meant to be issued only for a limited period of time.

Taking this logic a little further, why cannot then Kolkata and Mumbai Mint issue William IIII 2 Mohur coin, 15 Rupee George V coin again? Afterall, they were originally issued at these mints only? And what stops Kolkata Mint to reissue 2 Rupee coin of Land Vital Resource? I am quite sure that there will be buyers even at Rs. 50000 for a two coin set of Land Vital Resource. So, a line has to be drawn somewhere - it can not be allowed to go on.

I remember reading somewhere, or rather told by an employee of Mumbai Mint - that earlier, the original dies were used to be preserved in the Mint, but then some persons, having good friendship with the mintmaster, got the coins struck in other metals, example 1 rupee coin in Gold or copper - that is how now you find Proof Restrikes and OMS restrikes of many of the British India Coins. So, it was decided that once the coins have been minted, the dies would be destroyed.

I don't know how true this story is, but it makes sense to destroy the dies, so as to save them from misuse in future.

Abhay

[Coinsforever]

So, a line has to be drawn somewhere - it can not be allowed to go on.

Even though I'm not collecting proof/unc sets .

But I agree line must be drawn , It is just not dignified to misuse rules as owner or mint.


Cheers

[akona20]

The simple addition to the dies of a specific marker to show it is a restrike would be the way forward.

[mumbapuri]

Saw this on FB... and my first reactions were... what are the intentions?

1) Are the petitioners annoyed at a development which would possibly threaten the ROI of their investment? IMHO, this is the main purpose behind this campaign
2) As to the argument that the commen are time limited, this doesnt quantify the time period, now does it? Limited editions can be done in various iterations
3) The same dealers or at-least some of them (collector, dealer, enthusiasts, pple in power etal) gained when the so called reissues of BI coins were minted by the GOI mints. Why was there no petition to stop those or ban these so called reissues of the BI coins post 1947. Now someone may argue that they weren't commen coins; however they carried the bust of a british monarchy long after the indian independence which in itself was an incorrect.

IMHO, let the govt issue these, there are collectors who would be interested and would gain out of this. The bottom line should this is a hobby and should be treated like and NOT a investment stream. In case pple want to invest, this is the risk they carry.

the above are just my thoughts worth 2c and perhaps could even be flawed. No hard feelings.

Regards,


repindia, i was informed by some fellow members TO no longer posts here.  Who knows, he/they may post a comment on the blog

[Patney]

Dealers and Investor are trying to block the re-booking which is good for collector who could not earlier buy these coin sets due to very High Price, I would rather request the collector to write to mint in favour of Rebooking of Coin Sets.

[Abhay]

Dealers and Investor are trying to block the re-booking which is good for collector who could not earlier buy these coin sets due to very High Price, I would rather request the collector to write to mint in favour of Rebooking of Coin Sets.

Personally, even I am of the opinion that old issues can be reissued. But asking for such high premiums for reissued sets is just not logical. After all, Kolkata or Mumbai Mint are not dealer of Coins, who are there in the market just to make profits. What is the logic of asking Rs. 10000 for S.P. Mookerjee set? Just because the set is selling for Rs. 45000 in the market?

Going by this logic, why don't they strike 2 Mohur Gold coins and sell them for Rs. 7.5 Lac, when the market price is about Rs. 12.00 Lac, thus making a 1000% profit? (The cost for making a 2 Mohur Gold Coin will be around Rs. 72000 as on date, considering 23.30 Gram of Gold + Rs. 5000 as minting cost).

Abhay

[mitresh]

Our Govt would make a killing if instead of flogging dead horses they commemorated various events (read scams) - Bofors, Commonwealth Games, Coal, Fodder, IPL........

[dheer]

Dealers and Investor are trying to block the re-booking which is good for collector who could not earlier buy these coin sets due to very High Price, I would rather request the collector to write to mint in favour of Rebooking of Coin Sets.

Although I am in favour of restrikes as it gives me an opportunity to build my collection ...
The old collectors are not exactly happy [no I am not talking about dealers/investors, but real collectors] ... for there are quite a few collectors who collect packages [and not just coins] for these bunch, they now have to spending out of their pocket for no ryme or reason ... if they don't do it, there collection is incomplete ... now whether one should collect coins or packages is another debate that is not fully settled ...

To make sense, there has to be a logic in restrike and a very transperent one ... what sets would be restruck ... and how often and what price ... if one were to book all the sets issued this year its more than one lac to be spent ... that quite a bit of money for an ordinary collector and turns it into a rich mans hobby ...

[mumbapuri]

Dear Dheer,
for anyone collecting coins, their packaging, the postal envelope in which they come, etc... if the govt is putting in one more issue, shouldn't it be an occasion to celebrate? I would, but then i dont collect NCLT . But the same logic applies for circulating issues and their varieties and mules. if there is a new one reported, we always rejoice and hope to get one, dont we?

Dear Abhayji,
i like your suggestion on the 2Mohour, who knows this may become a reality and PSU banks like SBI may start selling these. The father-son duo who recently reportedly bought 2mohour though may not be happy about it and then they would petition about it

I wonder whether any other govt. has done this, a reissue of sorts? Any thoughts on that. In that case, I would request third reich marks and some peace dollars with fancy dates!!!

Regards,

[paisepagal]

First off, the letter seems so childishly written. And secondly, the fellow is obviously only thinking about his notional loss. He quite conveniently forgot about the Mumbai mint although it started making the OTC re-issues so easily available. But then those sets do not and anywhere near the premium of a mukherjee or tukaram set.

Although I am a long time proof as collector, I would never sign on to this petition because its obvious that this has been written from an investor perspective.

@abhay, you citation of dictionary explanations and then explicitly transferring it into a legal context is very flawed. You have to check the definition in the relevant clause of the relevant act wherever tht might be. For example, the Indian constitution defines an Anglo-Indian as anyone whose any one parent is not Indian. So an Anglo-Indian in this context is someone of mixed heritage and not only of British descent... So it covers Portuguese-Indian, French-Indian, Arab-Indian, Chinese-Indian etc etc


When it's all said and done, it's a win win for me either ways...my collection is still worth way more than I paid for it even if they reissue all the sets back to 69.. And if they do indeed do that, I have a couple sets which I would like to replace with new ones.

[mumbapuri]

...my collection is still worth way more than I paid for it even if they reissue all the sets back to 69.. And if they do indeed do that, I have a couple sets which I would like to replace with new ones.

When are the new set of pics coming online? U r way behind!!!