Assistance please: Initials on 1807 Taler Grand Duchy of Berg

[Austrokiwi]

I have a problem in sorting out the attribution of a 1780 Maria Theresia Taler. This particular variant is notable in a number of ways  but the key identification is an extra set of initials (S.T.) on the obverse above the standard SF.  IN researching I note that the 1807 Taler from the grand Duchy of Burg has the initials (T.S).  I have two questions (following which I will outline my reason for asking):

• 1. Whose initials are on the coin?
• 2. Which mint produced the coin.

The ST/SF 1780 Maria Theresa Taler variant is in Austria currently attributed to Milan 1815. However another researcher suggests the coin could be from an intermittent Florentine strike commissioned by Napoleons Sister Elisa who headed the principality of Lucca. 
That researcher also raises the possibility of the ST/SF being an  German state unofficial strike of unknown origin. I would also note that should the 1807 Grand Duchy of Burg be a Marseilles strike I will be very intrigued As that mint had requested permission to Mint 1780 MTT but Napoleon had refused.

[Figleaf]

T.S. in Berg are the initials of Theodor Stockmar, the mint master and engraver of the Düsseldorf mint since 12th February 1805. He owed his job to Joachim Murat, who was duke of Berg. His annual salary was 700 thaler, with an additional 100 thaler "Quartiergeld" (not sure what that is). In 1815, Berg was assigned to Prussia by the Vienna Congress and the Düsseldorf mint was re-opened in 1816. Stockmar was accused of fraud. He was retired and the mint was closed in 1817.

Peter

[Austrokiwi]

Danke

[chrisild]

Right, the mint here in Düsseldorf was closed after Prussia annexed Berg, but as early as 1817? As far as I know, that did not happen until 1848 ...

Christian

[Figleaf]

Interesting. I have indeed found another mintmaster in Düsseldorf from 1817 to before 1841, one Peter Wilhelm Noelle. However, I cannot find any coinage from the Düsseldorf mint, either for Berg or for Prussia, unless the C (Cleve) mintmark used by Prussia indicates Düsseldorf. However, Prussia used that mintmark only from 1867.

Peter

[chrisild]

Those mintmarks can be tricky ... Düsseldorf during the Prussian years had the mintmark "D"; here are a few pieces:
http://www.muenzauktion.com/rittig/item.php5?id=80208046
http://www.muenzauktion.com/wendel/item.php5?id=303
http://www.muenzauktion.com/rittig/item.php5?id=1215007

In earlier years (roughly 1750-70) Prussia used the "C" for the Kleve mint and "D" for Aurich. Then (first half of the 19c) the "D" meant Düsseldorf. In the 1870s (after the German Reich was founded, maybe a little earlier), the "C" was used by the Frankfurt mint ... and since 1872 the "D" has been the Munich mint mark.

Christian

[translateltd]

T.S. in Berg are the initials of Theodor Stockmar, the mint master and engraver of the Düsseldorf mint since 12th February 1805. He owed his job to Joachim Murat, who was duke of Berg. His annual salary was 700 thaler, with an additional 100 thaler "Quartiergeld" (not sure what that is). In 1815, Berg was assigned to Prussia by the Vienna Congress and the Düsseldorf mint was re-opened in 1816. Stockmar was accused of fraud. He was retired and the mint was closed in 1817.

Peter

Quartiergeld would appear to be a billeting allowance - perhaps he was required to host troops stationed in the town.

[chrisild]

Another possibility: Maybe it was common to either provide free accomodation for the mintmaster or pay him this Quartiergeld instead, so that he could get himself and his family a home. Just a guess though. Here is more about the Düsseldorf mint: http://www.duesseldorfer-muenzfreunde.de/104,0,duesseldorf-als-muenzstaette,index,0.php

The last sentence sounds a little odd. The Düsseldorf mint was of course not moved to Munich - but perhaps the author wanted to express that Munich sort of "inherited" the D mintmark.

Christian

[Austrokiwi]

This is all brilliant information: thank you all.   I have a further question is it possible that Theodor Stockmar  would reverse his initials on a coin that might gain Very strong Austrian disapproval and accusations of counterfeiting.   With the MTT variant I am researching one suggestion is that if the coin was minted in a German state with out Vienna's approval or knowledge. To ensure against accusations of counterfeiting the ST was added.  Given Herr Stockmar's retirement circumstances it doe not seem outside the bounds of possibility.

[Figleaf]

Possible? Certainly, especially, as you say, in view of other hanky panky in his career.

Likely? That's another question. The "home base" for MTT was of course Vienna, but its market was the middle East and East Africa. Following the trade route of those days, you go from Vienna to Salzburg, where the road splits, to either Munich or across the Brenner to Bosen and on to Verona (where there is a branch leading to Milano) and Venice, where ships leave for the Ottoman empire. I have seen several of these cities turn up as mints in your posts. My point is that Düsseldorf is too far from this trade route. There just wouldn't be enough demand for MTTs in this part of Germany and hanky panky is fun only when there's money to be made from it.

Peter

[Austrokiwi]

Thats basically what I thought but the idea as presented by Broome had some merit..................  but even Broome acknowledged the idea of an unapproved strike was speculation. 

However on the MTTs , at the era I am looking at, yes Vienna was one of the mints producing the coins, the main mint had been Guenzburg ( hence the initials SF on all MTTs today),  Milan and Venice were also significant producers, and the coin I am investigating seems likely to be a Florintine strike, or Milan strike. 

[Austrokiwi]

Possible? Certainly, especially, as you say, in view of other hanky panky in his career.

Likely? That's another question. The "home base" for MTT was of course Vienna, but its market was the middle East and East Africa. Following the trade route of those days, you go from Vienna to Salzburg, where the road splits, to either Munich or across the Brenner to Bosen and on to Verona (where there is a branch leading to Milano) and Venice, where ships leave for the Ottoman empire. I have seen several of these cities turn up as mints in your posts. My point is that Düsseldorf is too far from this trade route. There just wouldn't be enough demand for MTTs in this part of Germany and hanky panky is fun only when there's money to be made from it.

Peter

I am revisiting this last comment.  I am researching and writing my own notes on two coins ( which includes the one Mentioned in this thread) that F.Leopold in 1976 identifies as Italian and gives mintage dates of 1815, however as I have intimated a review of the literature is casting doubt on that attribution.  1815 was the year that Milan and Venice mints returned to Vienna's control However another Author Tschoegl 2004 cites actual known mint records which give start dates for Milan and Venice as 1820 ( For MTTs)  It has been suggested (as I have noted earlier) that this st/SF coin is German strike of questionable legality...............As noted in the quote above why would a coin trading in the Levant be minted in Germany far from the customers? I have a likely answer, that brings the German minting possibility back into Play  In 1764 the Guenzburg mint was established, the main reason being to produce Maria Theresia Talers for supply to Ausburg bankers ( who then exported them to the Orient). Now the RDR ended in 1805/1806 and Vienna lost control of Guenzburg.  Now I, if I was an enterprising Ausberg banker, would not let the  little matter of war and shifting borders to get in the way of  profit.........I would at least have a sold attempt at finding alternate supplies of talers!!!

[Austrokiwi]

Not Ausburg  but  Augsburg!!!  sorry bad spelling

[Figleaf]

Sounds quite good. Augsburg was one of Europe's most active silver market and it profited from the blockage of Antwerp, so the metal was there and the technology must have been there as well, at least onto the flan-making stage. Cutting dies is another matter, but with so many active mints in the vincinity, there must have been some minters around. Acquiring the machinery is just a question of money and there was no lack of it in Augsburg. However, if this is a rare issue, the plans must have gone awry, since every banker would know that a long run would lower fixed cost, therefore total cost.

Peter