Author Topic: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H  (Read 6646 times)

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Offline Manzikert

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2015, 12:36:21 AM »
Just to add yet another from the same obverse die as Vic's, mine bought from EWC several years ago.

Alan

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2015, 01:04:52 AM »
I saw those marks and stripes on other coins, what is the meaning of these - technically? Scraped dies?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 09:02:57 AM by Pellinore »

Offline Manzikert

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2015, 10:10:20 AM »
File marks on the blanks, either from thickness or (more likely here) weight adjustment, just as we were discussing with the Samanid and Qarakhanid coppers http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,31950.0.html .

In this case the blank was filed quite aggressively at upper right on what became the reverse side: this left the blank too thin at this point, and therefore the obverse wasn't struck up properly opposite the filing. The finer lines on the obverse along the bottom are probably just scratches on the face of the hammer used to flatten the blank.

Alan

Offline EWC

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2015, 10:23:50 AM »
File marks on the blanks,

I would differ.  They look to me like the impression left by hammering out the blanks on a rough anvil with lots of striations in its surface

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2015, 12:20:45 PM »
File marks on the blanks, either from thickness or (more likely here) weight adjustment, just as we were discussing with the Samanid and Qarakhanid coppers http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,31950.0.html .

In this case the blank was filed quite aggressively at upper right on what became the reverse side: this left the blank too thin at this point, and therefore the obverse wasn't struck up properly opposite the filing. The finer lines on the obverse along the bottom are probably just scratches on the face of the hammer used to flatten the blank.

Alan

Alan, as for the first remark, I think these marks are different from those on bronze Qarakhanid coins in that discussion thread: the Qarakhanid marks are incised and these are lying on the surface.

The second remark: quite right, I see it now it's the same side of the coin that is defaced, the metal's probably thinner there. The marks at the reverse (right picture) have the same height as the star and the lettering, they look like they came with the die - it's the die that looks damaged or mis-fabricated.
The striations at the obverse have a lower relief, they look to me as if they were already there on the blank. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
-- Paul

Offline EWC

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2015, 01:48:47 PM »
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Condider the possiblity that there were fewer striations on the face of the hammer than the face of the anvil.........

Offline THCoins

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2015, 06:38:21 PM »
Quote
But isn't a lop sided strike commonly seen on coins of this era where one side of the coin has very little die impression

Vic forwarded this as an explanation for the relative flat parts on quite large proportion of these coins. I now looked at pictures of a lot of these. I even got myself a specimen (not from Lanz, but die-identical). I dare say now that at least part of the flatness is not caused by uneven flan thickness or uneven strike. On a lot of the die identical specimen one can observe a deformation of the dots within the edge of the star in the regions adjacent to flat spots. In general the dots have expanded there. This can not be caused by die degradation as the regions in which this has occurred seems random from specimen to specimen. The most likely explanation to me is what i suggested earlier. These coins have been subjected to physical external force, likely by hammering, after the coins were struck. In my single specimen this is also supported by the local deformation of the edge at the flat part. The edge is clearly more concave in the flat surface region, fitting with pressure applied from top and bottom at the edge.

Though i lack the expertise to classify these coins as either genuine or non-genuine, i do believe the emergence of this flood of die-identical specimen (the count for Lanz now is > 60) is remarkable and not satisfactorily explained at this moment.

Anthony
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 07:53:59 PM by THCoins »

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2015, 02:11:02 AM »
My two coins came in this week. They didn't cost much.
The dirhem weighs 3,44 gr and measures 16,99 mm. The half dirhem weighs 1,73 gr and measures 12,83 mm.
They are much thicker than I expected, 1,60 mm for the dirhem and 1,52 mm for its half. Here are some pictures.
-- Paul

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2015, 12:20:22 PM »
Lanz is still offering them and advertising them as 'very rare'. However, he offered a total (as far as I can see) of 57 dirhems and 10 half dirhems in a few months (the last was put online on July 31, 22:46). You can detect various dies, but the one showed above has a large majority.
-- Paul

Offline THCoins

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2015, 02:13:09 PM »
And mine (3.45 grams). Not from Lanz, and also fairly cheap.
If all these came from a single hoard find, it must have had surely over 150 specimen of the same type.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2017, 09:51:13 PM »
I wonder if anything has come up on this subject. I suppose part of a war chest was found in Afghanistan, and this was the result. But has the stream dried up since? Are there any more conclusions to draw?
-- Paul
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 02:11:51 AM by Pellinore »

Offline EWC

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2017, 08:14:18 AM »
I see no reason to mention war chests.  These coins are fairly common and the circumstances indicate that savings hoarding - either one big lot or multiple smaller ones - are likely to be involved

What ground remains that has not been covered?

Rob T


Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2017, 09:35:47 AM »
Well, the war chest theory would explain the large number of die matchings. And the other thing is: has the flood dried up or is there still a number of these coins coming up?
-- Paul

Offline EWC

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2017, 09:52:43 AM »
Paul > Well, the war chest theory would explain the large number of die matchings.

How, specifically?

Paul > And the other thing is: has the flood dried up or is there still a number of these coins coming up?

I have seen maybe 100 pieces around London over the years on top of the 150 (?) reported in Germany - but I certainly would not call that a flood.  One guy's modest pension fund would cover it.  Reporting procedures in Afghanistan of course leave much to be desired, but I rather think that is one of their more minor problems


Rob T

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2017, 02:00:04 PM »
A guy collecting his pay over months would have many different coins. The output of a mint before paying soldiers would be more homogeneous. If you go to the bank for 100 one-pound coins, chance that they are from the same year is much higher than when you just examine the contents of your pockets.
-- Paul