Author Topic: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H  (Read 6715 times)

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Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2015, 04:36:33 PM »
Here's a picture of one of the Lanz coins with visible date and mint (I hope) - it is already sold.
Can you read it?
-- Paul

Offline THCoins

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2015, 04:56:10 PM »
Also looking at some other ones, starting at 9 o'clock "Four" "Ten" "and Six" "Hundred". So the date 614AH.
I don't think the mintplace is indicated on this type.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2015, 05:49:36 PM »
I had a number of these (15) in my recent big lot, Looking closely most of them appear to be from the same dies as the one on zeno & Ebay site but look as though many hundreds were struck as you can clearly see die expansion & flattening of the letters from a lot of hammering on some of them.

This is really odd, the zeno coins were posted  several years ago, my coins appear to have been in their packets quite some time so what a mystery this is
Vic

Offline THCoins

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2015, 06:24:02 PM »
With your coins, that's getting towards 50 recorded specimen, all from the same die. I seems that these have been on the market for well over 10 years. It is just now that the Lanz firm seems flooding the market with these that i noticed. It is remarkable to say the least.

Online Figleaf

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2015, 10:10:52 PM »
FWIW, Lanz is a multi-generation family business with a solid rep, but they mostly deal in European coins.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Online Afrasi

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2015, 10:24:21 PM »
Lanz is a multi-generation family business with a solid rep ...

 ???

Sorry! There are many collectors with other experiences ...

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2015, 10:41:00 PM »
Three coins from zeno, undoubtedly from the same dies   ???

I think these are from a hoard discovered some time back
Vic

Offline EWC

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 08:28:58 AM »
Interesting.  I just had a look at a few of these and there are a lot of die links - (but I saw at least 4 dies).

Indicates that it was a fairly small issue but that a large proportion of it survived melting.

That is true also of the Ghengis billon issue of Ghazna - but in that case the reason is pretty clear - nearly everyone was killed soon after the issue, and being base billon, they were then left uncollected.

All these Syrian style dirhems seem to be struck in 614 - perhaps in Herat?  My guess is that the issue was aborted as there no profit in it for the issuers, and what was struck was immediately hoarded - a Gresham response to the flood of base billon jitals.

Thus they were immobilised soon after issue in savings hoards.  As I recall only 40 people were supposed to have survived the Mongol conquest of Herat.  So there was next to no one left to return and dig up their savings - and a very large proportion of the issue survived in the ground down to the 20th century.


Offline THCoins

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2015, 09:39:23 AM »
The theory of a single savings hoard might be right. It would contradict the theory that this was an issue to finance the battle against the Ayyubids, as proposed in this thread on Zeno.
A problem i have with the direct hoarding theory is the state of many of these coins. Instead of looking mint-state many look like the surfaces were hammered after striking. I don't think this is all explained by die wear.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2015, 10:07:16 AM »
Instead of looking mint-state many look like the surfaces were hammered after striking. I don't think this is all explained by die wear.


But isn't a lop sided strike commonly seen on coins of this era where one side of the coin has very little die impression, I have lots of coins like this
Vic

Offline EWC

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2015, 10:19:10 AM »
But isn't a lop sided strike commonly seen on coins of this era where one side of the coin has very little die impression, I have lots of coins like this

I agree with Vic on that.

My slight information is the coins are perhaps from Herat.  Ala-ud-din struck coins of many sorts - including base gold dinars of the Kanauj type far to the east as well as star dirhems of western types.  My guess is that Ala-ud-din had a monetary philosophy similar to that of Hayek - he sold licenses to coin to all comers, allowing a free for all.  These were a failed bid by Syrian merchants to get a foothold in the market.

I judge Ala-ud-din was a political catastrophy.  He ran away from Ghengis Khan because he knew the population hated him too much to fight for him.  As I recall, not only did the population of Bukhara rise up and kill all his tax collectors - they cut them up and hung the joints in the meat market.

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2015, 08:46:37 PM »
I counted the coins still for sale plus the ones sold by Lanz: 35 dirhems and 8 half dirhems. Naturally, more coins might be added in the next weeks. And if you are on good terms with Lanz you could ask for the source (why not?).
-- Paul

Offline THCoins

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2015, 09:25:39 PM »
Interstingly, there was only one of the half-dirhams offered by the Lanz firm which was a bit different and certainly not die identical. But i suspect that was an Ayyubid half-dirham which was mixed in the lot somehow.
In al cases the "Scarce" classification of this type can be changed because of al these specimen which have surfaced. (There's another seller who recently has an additional group of 6 for sale, again die identical.)

Offline Pellinore

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2015, 11:56:07 PM »
I agree with you, these coins are not scarce anymore. They are certainly not expensive, generally 6-25 euros in auction.
There's also a double strike and some damaged dies, technically interesting I would think.
-- Paul

Online Afrasi

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Re: Khwarezm dirhem of 596-617 H
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2015, 12:07:13 AM »
And if you are on good terms with Lanz you could ask for the source (why not?).

Why not? Because Lanz will lock you as a bidder. At least this happend to friends of me ... I myself was "lucky" only getting no reasonable answer.