William IIII Silver Rupee of 1835 - Thick and Thin Letters

[Abhay]

For William IIII Silver Rupee of 1840 with RS incused on the truncation, there are two varieties - with THICK letter and THIN letter.

To the naked eyes, it is often difficult to differentiate between the two.

The latest catalogue on British India Coins by Paul Stevens and Randy Weir suggests that this difference can best be seen by comparing the Downstroke of "L" in the WILLIAM.

I am uploading some images, taken at 150X magnification with Digital Microscope, showing the difference clearly.

Abhay

[Harry]

To the naked eyes, it is often difficult to differentiate between the two.

The latest catalogue on British India Coins by Paul Stevens and Randy Weir suggests that this difference can best be seen by comparing the Downstroke of "L" in the WILLIAM.

Abhay

Abhay -  Yes I have never been able to figure out the difference between think and thin letters in the 1835 Rupee.  From your pictures, I can see that they are different (very nice pictures by the way).  What exactly is the downstroke of L?

[Abhay]

Abhay -  Yes I have never been able to figure out the difference between think and thin letters in the 1835 Rupee.  From your pictures, I can see that they are different (very nice pictures by the way).  What exactly is the downstroke of L?

The Vertical leg of letter L is called the downstroke of L.

The dictionary meaning of Downstroke - " Noun   downstroke - a stroke normally made in a downward direction"

Abhay

[The Oracle]

The Vertical leg of letter L is called the downstroke of L.

The dictionary meaning of Downstroke - " Noun   downstroke - a stroke normally made in a downward direction"

Abhay

there are many different fonts used for the L  so it can get pretty confusing/exciting depending on ones interest

[Abhay]

there are many different fonts used for the L  so it can get pretty confusing/exciting depending on ones interest

I fully agree with you, but for this case of William IIII coins, there are only two style of Fonts used, one with Thick L and the other with Thin L. The difference in the thickness of L is quite clearly visible from the attached images.

And afterall, in case of British India Coins, all the differences lie in the  placement of Dots, Leaves in Flowers, Number of Locks in the Hair, style of Fonts, number of panels in the robe of queen etc. etc., which are very minor differences, hardly noticeable to an ordinary collector. And these differences are what make the ordinary coin value rise from Rs. 1000 to Rs. 20000. 

Abhay

[The Oracle]

I fully agree with you, but for this case of William IIII coins, there are only two style of Fonts used, one with Thick L and the other with Thin L. The difference in the thickness of L is quite clearly visible from the attached images.

And afterall, in case of British India Coins, all the differences lie in the  placement of Dots, Leaves in Flowers, Number of Locks in the Hair, style of Fonts, number of panels in the robe of queen etc. etc., which are very minor differences, hardly noticeable to an ordinary collector. And these differences are what make the ordinary coin value rise from Rs. 1000 to Rs. 20000. 

Abhay

I was speaking of the William 4 coins.  I had a few different kinds myself.  There are I believe some collector had also made a nice graphic for them and posted them somewhere on the net.  I dont know if it still there.  Nobody cared about them back in the day.  As far as Victoria is concerned you can write a whole book just on 1862.  Only the date was frozen the design was not

On a positive note we get these jewels even in ROI coinage these days 

[Abhay]

I was speaking of the William 4 coins. I had a few different kinds myself.  There are I believe some collector had also made a nice graphic for them and posted them somewhere on the net.  I dont know if it still there.  Nobody cared about them back in the day. As far as Victoria is concerned you can write a whole book just on 1862.  Only the date was frozen the design was not

On a positive note we get these jewels even in ROI coinage these days 

Same here. It is only after getting the latest book by Paul Stevens and  Randy Weirs, that I looked at my William IIII coins again, and this time with more knowledge and information in hand, I was able to find out different varieties.

Abhay

[Vivek]

Could some one share reason why William 4 is written as Willian IIII and not William IV ?
Vivek

[Bimat]

Could some one share reason why William 4 is written as Willian IIII and not William IV ?

The answer is here.

Aditya

[Abhay]

The other possible reasons:

1. Perhaps IV was avoided because IV represented the Roman god Jupiter, whose Latin name, IVPPITER, begins with IV. This suggestion has been attributed to Isaac Asimov.

2. Louis XIV, king of France, who preferred IIII over IV, ordered his clockmakers to produce clocks with IIII and not IV, and thus it has remained.

3. Using standard numerals, two sets of figures would be similar and therefore confusable by children and others unused to reading clockfaces: IV and VI are similar, as are IX and XI. As the first pair are upside down on the face, an additional level of confusion would be introduced—a confusion avoided by using IIII to provide a clear distinction from VI.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals

Abhay

[The Oracle]

Same here. It is only after getting the latest book by Paul Stevens and  Randy Weirs, that I looked at my William IIII coins again, and this time with more knowledge and information in hand, I was able to find out different varieties.

Abhay

in my days there were no books except pridmore (we never counted KM as anything) and i personally almost never refered to it.  what really did my british india collection at the time was it was more or less worthless so you always got the feeling you were wasting time which could be used to buy good coins from elsewhere.  Even now the mughal period coinage is very undervalued.  ROI is done for good by 2014 end there wont be any rarities left in ROI according to recent calculations and developments. 

So british india is where the action will stay for the near future at least. 

[Harry]

in my days there were no books except pridmore (we never counted KM as anything) and i personally almost never refered to it. 

My view of KM is very different, KM was my main source of information when I started collecting coins back in the 90s. I built the core of my British India and world coins using KM so I have a lot of respect for the book.  Today I use Pridmore and now more and more SW,  for the same reason Abhay pointed out, SW has made identifying varieties of Uniform coinage much easier with the use of clear photo graphs and also at times new approaches.

I fully agree with you, but for this case of William IIII coins, there are only two style of Fonts used, one with Thick L and the other with Thin L. The difference in the thickness of L is quite clearly visible from the attached images.

Using size as a way to identify a variety is very difficult, and I would argue impractical, as size is relative and so one needs to compare it with another coin.   That is why we see so much of confusion in identifying for example, KGVI small head vs large head,  and for the 1945 Large 5 vs Small 5.   This is also why figuring out the Indian head vs English head in the 1840 rupee has been so difficult for collectors as its traditionally been defined as the neck is thicker or the noise is pointier – both measures require two coins.  What SW has attempted to do is to find a way to identify a variety independently.   Hence they came up with the distance from the rim to the point on the bust, 1mm=Indian head , 2mm=English head. Distance is not relative, its absolute and therefore easier to work with when you have just one coin.

Similarly, for the “Thin” lettering of the 1835 Rupee, if you say that the L is thinner or thicker, to me that doesn’t really solve the problem and an alternative way needs to be found.  If you are saying that the shape of the downstroke of the letter L is different , that is very interesting.  So does the thin lettering have a pointed end on the letter L vs a flat one for the think as marked? Is this a way to distinguish the thin lettering from the thick/normal lettering?  I have my doubts but I'm just asking.

[Md. Shariful Islam]

Does William IIII has rupee of 1840? or it is 1835?

[Harry]

Does William IIII has rupee of 1840? or it is 1835?

Good catch !
1840=Victoria  1835=William IIII

[Md. Shariful Islam]

I notice differnece in thickness in 'I' too. Please check.