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Reading Chinese Dates

Started by Alan Glasser, March 10, 2013, 09:48:14 PM

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Alan Glasser

I was rather pleased with myself today when I figured out how to read Japanese dates (at least Showa Era dates). I'm not doing quite as well with the dates on these 2 Kwangtung, China 20 cent pieces. Are there any experts out there that could help me out? Thanks!!!!  Alan





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FosseWay

The digits are the same as for Japanese. On the top coin the date is the 5th and 6th characters from the right in the upper inscription, namely 10 and 8 = 18. I presume this is a coin of the Republic and therefore the era date is AD 1911, making the coin date 1929, but Chinese coins aren't core knowledge for me so I may be talking out of the wrong orifice.

The bottom coin wants rotating 180º. But even then I can't make immediate sense of the inscription as it seems to have digits 5 and 1 separated by a non-numeric character.

Alan Glasser

Hello, Fosseway. That's a great start for me. Thank you for yor input!!  Alan

FosseWay

Sorry, the numbers on the bottom coin are 4 and 1, not 5. Told you I was rusty!

translateltd

The characters on the bottom coin are normally translated as "1 mace and 4.4 candareens", which are European names for local denominations. I'm not sure of the Chinese readings.  The silver dollar coins were tariffed at 7 mace and 6 candareens so this will work out (somehow) at 1/5 of that amount!


akona20

7 mace 2 candareens was the old Schezuan dragon dollar and this is one fifth of that. So?

Figleaf

Multiply 1 mace 4.4 candareens by 5 and you get 5 mace 22 candareens, which must be the same as 7 mace 6 candareens. Deduct and you find that, 2 mace 6 candareens equal 22 candareens, so a mace must be 8 candareens.

Check: If a mace is 8 candareens, 7 mace 6 candareens equals 62 candareens. Divide by 5 and you get 12.4 candareens. Convert 8 of those candareens back to 1 mace and you get 1 mace 4.4 candareens.

It helps if you were taught to calculate in £sd at school :)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

akona20

But a mace is 10 candareens so we have 1.44 x 5 = 7.2

translateltd

Quote from: akona20 on March 11, 2013, 01:39:30 AM
But a mace is 10 candareens so we have 1.44 x 5 = 7.2

Of course this is correct and my earlier msg should have read 7 mace and *2* candareens.  The perils of combining quoting from memory and rushing ...

My apologies for any and all confusion.

What makes things even more confusing, or interesting, depending on your standpoint, is that when you look at the characters (and read them the Japanese way) - mace and candareens are the same as "sen" and "rin", which were 1/100 and 1/1000 of a yen respectively.   


akona20


translateltd

Quote from: akona20 on March 11, 2013, 04:40:15 AM
Yes same kanji script.

I had noticed that :-)  My point was more that it was interesting that the "sen" became a hundredth part of the yen (= yuan, = dollar in then-contemporary parlance) in Japan, but that the Chinese cognate (qian or suchlike) was not "revalued" in the same way and amounted, if I have my maths right this time, to 10/72 of a silver dollar in China.


akona20

That is a nice point being made.

To really comment I would need to do some study. hwoever given the various upheavals in China perhaps there was neither the will nor the ability to do it.

Alan Glasser

Oooops...looks like Alan has stepped right in the middle of a "raging controversy". Here I am with my calculator...trying to make sense of mace and candareens...I thought Mace was something thrown during riots and Candareens is the language spoke by Candadians.... ;D....   back to the books for Alan,

What a great bunch you all are!!!  Alan

gxseries

Kinda disagree what's going on here.

Mace is 1/10 of a tael or 10 candareens. This is usually used to weigh silver. However as time passed by, silver becoming too expensive, western standard of weighing precious metals in terms of ounces, grams etc took over, the intention of expressing silver weight in mace and candareens became outdated. While the character "qian" or "sen" is used to describe weight, it unfortunately has a second meaning which just means "cash".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_%28unit%29

Simply put, if you have a crown size coin, it should weight as follows - 7.2 * 3.78 (one mace = 3.78g). This should correspond to the catalog weigh for all Chinese coins in mace and candareens, i.e.

7.2 mace = 27.2g (i.e. dollar)
3.6 mace = 13.6g (i.e. half dollar)
1.44 mace = 5.44g (i.e. 20 cents)
0.72 mace = 2.72g (7.2 candareens) (i.e. 10 cents)
0.36 mace = 1.36g (3.6 candareens) (i.e. 5 cents)

Maybe this makes more sense?

Here's some examples








translateltd

Quote from: gxseries on March 12, 2013, 02:32:46 PM
Kinda disagree what's going on here.

Mace is 1/10 of a tael or 10 candareens. This is usually used to weigh silver. However as time passed by, silver becoming too expensive, western standard of weighing precious metals in terms of ounces, grams etc took over, the intention of expressing silver weight in mace and candareens became outdated. While the character "qian" or "sen" is used to describe weight, it unfortunately has a second meaning which just means "cash".


No controversy or reason for disagreement that I can see :-)  The weight aspect of "mace" and "candareens" is useful extra info - thanks!  It would be interesting to know how "qian" and "lin" (or however the Japanese "rin" is read in Chinese) became Mace and Candareens in English, though - that clearly goes well beyond any Western attempts to transliterate Asian words.