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England 2 pence 1681 - Seaby 3388

Started by Figleaf, April 24, 2007, 09:56:45 PM

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Figleaf

Here is a nice acquisition, an English tuppence 1681, in the name of Charles II Stuart, easy to recognize despite its size, similar to the penny and threepence, because of the number of C's on the reverse. Since I have an ancient version of Seaby, can someone give me the new Seaby number?

If you follow the link above, make sure to have a look at the list of this king's misstresses. He must have been a wealthy man :D

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

3388 in my 2005 edition.

Martin
NZ

Figleaf

An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

muntenman

#3
That devillish king had to marry a real Ugly Spanish bitch to insure an everlasting peace with the Kingdom of Spain... so while playing with his dogs (Cavalier KIng Charles Spaniels) he takes many delicious mistresses during this marriage. Catholics do not divorce in those days, they only (deleted) around... oops naughty me.

However there is a quite good movie at the subject from the viewing point of Charles' physician , called RESTORATION, made somewhere in 2002 I believe, with Hugh Grant and Meg Ryan in cameo-parts about this man depicted on the coin.

Should be available with your local video rental shop... aah history with sex.. isn't that quite good old fashionned education for you little boys and girlies out there?

Greetings  from your looney tunes expert :P >:D ;D
GLOBAL MODERATOR under the name of GRIVNAGOZER at www.munthunter.nl

Figleaf

Quote from: muntenman on April 28, 2007, 12:51:31 AM
That devillish king had to marry a real Ugly Spanish bitch to insure an everlasting peace with the Kingdom of Spain...

Everlasting until the next war, which, I believe, was the war of the Spanish succession (or was it Queen Anne's war?)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

muntenman

Yep! But that began as a certain Colonial Affair...
GLOBAL MODERATOR under the name of GRIVNAGOZER at www.munthunter.nl

BC Numismatics

Peter,being a member of the Anglican Church myself,these coins are of interest,as this is a Maundy coin,which was given out at the royal Maundy Thursday service.

Here is an article that will be of interest; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maundy_money .

These coins are very sought after by both British Isles & British Commonwealth numismatists.

The denomination is indicated by how many 'C's it has. In this case,there are 2 'C's,which indicates the 2d.

Aidan.

Figleaf

I don't think my coin is maundy money. Yes, the ceremony is old and yes they used such coins, but in 1681, practically all small silver coins were for circulation. At some point, the silver 1, 2, 3 and 4 pence became ceremonial only but it's really hard to say when.

My own favorite date for the change is 1816, but I am not asking anyone to agree. My theory is supported (somewhat) by the price structure of the series and by the fact that a big coinage reform took place in 1816. Until decimalization, all coins struck after 1816 were legal tender, so you could say that the 1816 reforms created Britain's modern coin system, where there was no place for small silver coins, because all small denominations became fiduciary. The threepence (with a different design) survived for another period, simply because it would have been too large in copper, but it became more and more impopular until it was finally replaced by a brass coin (Britain must have been one of the last countries on earth to expand the use of coin metals beyond bronze-silver-gold).

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

Quote from: Figleaf on June 20, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
(Britain must have been one of the last countries on earth to expand the use of coin metals beyond bronze-silver-gold).

Peter

I vote for New Zealand on that score - we had bronze and silver (later cupro-nickel) only until 1990, when the aluminium-bronze dollars and $2 were introduced.  Australia wasn't much further ahead of us - 1984 for its al-bro $1 coins.


BC Numismatics

Quote from: Figleaf on June 20, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
I don't think my coin is maundy money. Yes, the ceremony is old and yes they used such coins, but in 1681, practically all small silver coins were for circulation. At some point, the silver 1, 2, 3 and 4 pence became ceremonial only but it's really hard to say when.

My own favorite date for the change is 1816, but I am not asking anyone to agree. My theory is supported (somewhat) by the price structure of the series and by the fact that a big coinage reform took place in 1816. Until decimalization, all coins struck after 1816 were legal tender, so you could say that the 1816 reforms created Britain's modern coin system, where there was no place for small silver coins, because all small denominations became fiduciary. The threepence (with a different design) survived for another period, simply because it would have been too large in copper, but it became more and more impopular until it was finally replaced by a brass coin (Britain must have been one of the last countries on earth to expand the use of coin metals beyond bronze-silver-gold).

Peter

Peter,your coin is classed as being Maundy money,even though it was struck as a circulation coin.Who knows,your coin could have been held by His Majesty,King Charles II of England,Scotland,& Ireland himself.If only coins could talk.

Aidan.

Figleaf

Quote from: translateltd on June 20, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
I vote for New Zealand on that score - we had bronze and silver (later cupro-nickel) only until 1990, when the aluminium-bronze dollars and $2 were introduced.  Australia wasn't much further ahead of us - 1984 for its al-bro $1 coins.

I'd say copper-nickel is a different coin metal. Around 1900, a number of countries struggled to find a solution for their small silver coins. The pioneer replacing silver by copper-nickel was Belgium.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

Quote from: Figleaf on June 20, 2007, 11:54:03 PM
Quote from: translateltd on June 20, 2007, 11:20:36 PM
I vote for New Zealand on that score - we had bronze and silver (later cupro-nickel) only until 1990, when the aluminium-bronze dollars and $2 were introduced.  Australia wasn't much further ahead of us - 1984 for its al-bro $1 coins.

I'd say copper-nickel is a different coin metal. Around 1900, a number of countries struggled to find a solution for their small silver coins. The pioneer replacing silver by copper-nickel was Belgium.

Peter

Before 1857?

(OK, the example I am thinking of wasn't replacing silver, but it's the earliest Cu-Ni coin that comes to mind ...)

BC Numismatics

Martin,what has cupro-nickel replacing silver got to do with a Maundy 1/2 Groat (2d.)? I don't see any connection.

As for trying to complete a date set of the 4 coins for any date of King Charles II's Maundy coins,you are going to face an uphill battle,as it were.

Aidan.

Figleaf

#13
Quote from: BC Numismatics on June 21, 2007, 06:18:23 AM
Martin,what has cupro-nickel replacing silver got to do with a Maundy 1/2 Groat (2d.)? I don't see any connection.

In a previous post, I talked about the silver threepenny bit being replaced by a brass variety (which threw Martin off, since he was thinking of brass only). So it's all my fault.

And yes, this coin can talk, albeit not unambiguously. It was a kind gift from a  friend who found it near the city of Utrecht in the Netherlands. So how does an English coin end up there? The usual suspects when a foreign coin is found are sailors, soldiers and merchants. A sailors is technically possible but highly unlikely, since Utrecht is too far from the sea. Soldiers is an unlikely options since neither country had invaded the other (but read on). A merchant is possible, but what would a merchant do in Utrecht when everything he could possibly want was in Amsterdam and Middelburg? However, there was another kind of Englishman, regularly trekking past Utrecht.

On 10th June 1688 a crisis occurred in England and it was called James Francis Edward Stuart. He was the son of James II and Mary of Modena, so he became a catholic successor to the throne, replacing Mary Stuart, a protestant. Plotting against the king had been going on since his accession, but now it started in earnest. There was a steady stream of envoys and representatives from English nobility and clergy to William's palace, Het Loo, near Apeldoorn (which still exists and has been restored to how it looked in William's time) to discuss what would become the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and the conditions of William's kingship. You have probably guessed it: the road from Amsterdam to Het Loo leads past Utrecht. This modest coin may very well have been lost by a spy, a rebel or a courtier involved in planning the Glorious Revolution!

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

Quote from: Figleaf on June 21, 2007, 09:30:01 AM

In a previous post, I talked about the silver threepenny bit being replaced by a brass variety (which threw Martin off, since he was thinking of brass only). So it's all my fault.

Peter

For those who aren't familiar with the concept, it's called topic shift - Peter raised a point that was different to the main subject, and I picked it up and continued the new line of discussion (not sure where or when I was supposed to have been "thrown off", but that's another side issue!).  Of course, one should change the subject of the thread at that point, which I failed to do.  Mea culpa.