Sri Vira Coinage of the Madurai Nayaks: 1601-1736

Started by Quant.Geek, January 12, 2013, 11:21:30 AM

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Quant.Geek

Unfortunately, I don't have Mitchiner in front of me, but this one seems to be the later style which are much more refined and struck on a larger flan.  I'll look it up once I get home.  BTW, it *might* not be a peacock, but the actual throne.  Here is an example of what I mean:

A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

THCoins

No, it is definitely a peacock. I also have seen this design on other probably earlier coins.
The bow behind the deity are its tail feathers spread i think.

EWC

Great to see these fascinating coins noticed!  Many years since (1987?) I had an urge to try catalogue and attribute them myself, but it passed........

I drew a few back then - attached in case of interest - have not tried posting images here before - will have to see if it needs resizing

Rob

THCoins

Hello Rob, And welcome !
Literature on these coins is indeed scarce. But Ram already made a great effort to assemble specimen from different members in this thread. Please feel free to add any examples you might have. I think your line drawings are excelent ! I share your facination for these coins (And from some of my older posts it may be clear that i also very much like the samanta deva personal avatar picture you chose).

Anthony

asm

"It Is Better To Light A Candle Than To Curse The Darkness"

Quant.Geek

Thanks Rob!  This will definitely help in classifying these coins further.  There are a few coins that have already been classified in Mitchiner's book, but there are also a few that are not.  The variation on these coins is daunting and makes you wonder how anyone can determine if a coin is legitimate or a counterfeit.

Anthony's coin, unfortunately, is not among the documented coins in Mitchiner.  However, given the flan size, I would classify it among the later styles. 
A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

EWC

Many thanks - and to Anthony.  Is someone assembling images of all the known types? If so I would like a link to site.

Its near thirty years since I looked at these things so my memory is very hazy - but I seem to recall seeing well over a hundred types and varieties.  As best I recall Michael Mitchiner later turned up types I had not seen - so the total scale of the issue might be very large......

It would be nice to know more about the issuing authority.  Mitchiner points out that overstrikes are common - which seems possibly important.  It may suggest that type changing was going on - for fiscal purposes.  A risky hypothesis, but interesting.

Any comments on my attempted attributions?

Rob

THCoins

Ram = Quant.Geek, as a moderator he glued together different older posts in this thread. As far as i know the collection shown here already is one of the largest to be found on the internet. I don not know of other serious recent attempts to catalog these coins apart from the work of Ganesh. But Quant.Geek is more at home in the southern India literature than i am.
I think the descriptions with your line drawings all seem very plausible. I have the impression a logical classification of the designs will probably be along the lines of the religious subjects, and possibly also astronomical subjects. In the order of issue i could only make a distinction between early and late issues based on the flan size and shape and calligraphy. Quant.Geek again may be better equipped to answer this matter. I share your estimation that there are probably over a hundred types and varieties.

Quant.Geek

#38
Currently, the only literature that I know that does a somewhat decent job in classifying these coins is Mitchiner.  I suspect Ganesh's Coins of Tamilnadu also has some of these coins documented, but I don't know as I was never able to find a copy of this book.  Mitchiner classifies the series into three parts based on calligraphy and flan size. AFAIK, this is the only thread on the internet that tries to collect the numerous variations together.  There are so many variations that even Mitchiner only shows a handful.  So, there is a good chance you can find one that hasn't been documented yet.  Using the coins from previous threads, I can illustrate the various classes:

Series 1 - Early form of Sri



These series of coins have an early form of Sri in Sri Vira.  They either have pictorial obverse with an inscription on the reverse (1B) or a pictorial obverse with a pictorial reverse and inscription (1A).  The inscription is either on a single line or broken into two columns.  Consider MCSI-819 which is classified as type 1A:



Here is one where the inscription is broken into two columns, aka type 1B.  Note that the reverse should be rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise:







Series 2 - The ubiquitous type that shows many varieties



There are so  many of these that only a handful has been documented.  Here is one that illustrates them, but majority of the coins on this thread falls under this category.




Series 3 - Later style with broader flans and sometimes concave on the reverse



The later styles are sometimes overstruck on earlier Nayaka coins and the reverse legend is sometimes engraved in a "thin spidery style".  Anthony's coin falls under this category.  These coins were the last of the series before the Nawab conquest of Madurai in 1736. 

Cheers,

Ram
A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

Quant.Geek

#39
Rob,

In regards to your attachment.  Your attributions are outstanding!  They far exceed what Mitchiner has indicated and furthermore, other than the Krishna with a flute (MCSI-845) and the pot (MCSI-856), the rest are not documented.  Do you have images of these coins?  It would be awesome if they can be uploaded here for future reference...

Thanks,

Ram
A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

Quant.Geek

From S.R. Ravichandran's coinnetwork page, hand-drawn images of Sri Vira coins in his collection.  There are several coins that have not been properly documented.  Unfortunately, he did not upload all his coins...


A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

EWC

Hello Ram,

Many thanks for the kind comments - and also for the drawings from Ravichandran - a much better artists then I!

What is really needed is a little book or web site - briging all the so far known types together.  Maybe something like that lovely work by Narendra Kothari on Ujjain coins? - Combining drawings and scans.  My friend Wilfried Pieper did something similar for the early coppers in general.....

Once it was under way, with the known types listed in an easy format to navigate, probably all sorts of new types would start to appear.  Not a job I could take on, but maybe you Ram?

Meanwhile - attached is a page from Rev Loventhal's "Coins of Tinnevelly' (Madras 1888)

Rob

Quant.Geek

#42
Quote from: EWC on November 24, 2014, 03:03:04 PM
Hello Ram,

Many thanks for the kind comments - and also for the drawings from Ravichandran - a much better artists then I!

What is really needed is a little book or web site - briging all the so far known types together.  Maybe something like that lovely work by Narendra Kothari on Ujjain coins? - Combining drawings and scans.  My friend Wilfried Pieper did something similar for the early coppers in general.....

Once it was under way, with the known types listed in an easy format to navigate, probably all sorts of new types would start to appear.  Not a job I could take on, but maybe you Ram?

Meanwhile - attached is a page from Rev Loventhal's "Coins of Tinnevelly' (Madras 1888)

Rob

Thanks Rob.  I have been trying to find a copy of Loventhal's work for a while now, but I have been unsuccessful.  There seems to be a boatload of very interesting coins that Loventhal discovered!  WOW!!!

A project of this magnitude can not be done by one person as it will definitely take forever.  I remember Barbara Mears took on a similar task to categorize the Thirai Kasu of Travancore and that took her years to do.  My suggestion is to use a Wiki page for easy additions and that can be hosted by WoC, with Peter's approval of course.  However, a more cooperative effort from Indian numismatists is required, otherwise it will be a fruitless effort.  Unfortunately, there seems to be very little interest in this corner other than some western numismatists  :-\ .  Given the fact that there has been over 3,500 views of this thread, but with only two or three contributors, it makes you wonder!!!

Ram
A gallery of my coins can been seen at FORVM Ancient Coins

ChrisHagen

Allow me to commend you on your work guys! This discussion board thread could almost be published in a numismatic journal. I'm sure hundreds if not thousands of future coins will be attributed based on the information available here.

Figleaf

Quote from: Quant.Geek on November 24, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
A project of this magnitude can not be done by one person (...)

My suggestion is to use a Wiki page for easy additions and that can be hosted by WoC, with Peter's approval of course.  However, a more cooperative effort from Indian numismatists is required, otherwise it will be a fruitless effort.

WoC would be proud to host such project. We (andyg, Izotz and I) now have some experience with the Wiki software, so we can help you with answers to technical questions. You need a project manager (QG?) and an idea of what you want.

Once you got the space, get a few people together (the hardest part, but what a way to find friends!), make an infrastructure and organise filling in the structure collaboratively, inclusively and on a non-commercial basis. Remember that an incomplete site is already a reference that doesn't get worse. It just gets better. With enough people and good will (even if it's for a single coin only), it can be done.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.