Coin found on a Ionian Island (Greece)

[Raph77]

Hello,
So here is the coin, I am really interested to know its dating and distribution range.
I do not know its weight, but it is not more than a millimeter on its edge.
I hope it will be visible on the picture, but the letters are (as much as I can read): R.C.L.A, and at the bottom A.V
Thank you!

[THCoins]

The item does not look very Greek.
I think R.C.L.A stands for Regina Coeli Laetare Alleluia.
Could be a Venetian Bagattino?

[Raph77]

Hi THCoins,
Thank you for your reply and information, can you tell me what a Venetian Bagattino is? The Ionian Islands have been occupied by the Venetians for a few centuries, so it could be from this period then.

[Afrasi]

Yes, it is a Venetian anonymous Bagattino. If you search for the mintmaster initials "A.V." you will perhaps get nearer to its date.

[Raph77]

Afrasi thank you also for your quick reply, could you explain to me what a mintmaster is?

[Bimat]

Mintmaster: Chief administrative official of a mint. May also a be a private person when coining is farmed out. Responsible for following the rules of the moneyer. French: directeur de l'hôtel de la monnaie, German: Münzmeister Dutch: Muntmeester.

For more numismatic terms, click here.

Aditya

[Raph77]

Thank you Bimat!

[Figleaf]

Found a similar coin in the portable antiquities scheme (illustration formatted to suit forum requirements.) Identified there as:

A post-Medieval copper-alloy bagattino, probaly 15th-16th century. Anonymous issue,

Obverse: R. C. - L. A V; Regno Coeli Laetare Alleluia (Kingdom of Heaven, rejoice, alleluia); Half-length facing figure of Madonna with Child on right
Reverse: Facing nimbate Lion of St. Mark in square, with a rosette in each outer segment

All of which confirms Afrasi's identification.

This one was found on the Isle of Wight. The coins sure travelled well.

Peter

[Raph77]

Hi Peter I am so happy to have discovered more about this coin, it means something to me, maybe because of the symbol of motherhood pictured by Mary and baby Jesus (although I'm not a believer), it's quite touching to find something like that. If it was also found on the Isle of Wight, that's quite a long way from here! Did they use coins all over the states back then, no matter their place of birth? Was the metal used and its weight relevant for payment? Was for example a bagattino a common money made all over Europe? A bagattino was always with Mary? A lot of questions!!!

[FosseWay]

In 15th/16th century England there were no copper coins. All the official coinage was in silver (or gold, if you were rich enough). I'm not aware of unofficial tokens being issued that early. Therefore I'm struggling to think how such a coin could have been used in commerce in the Isle of Wight -- there would have been nothing else of a similar size for it to have been used instead of, if you see what I mean.

It might have been a sailor's or merchant's keepsake. Then as now Portsmouth, just across the water from the Isle of Wight, was a naval town, so many sailors from all over Europe are likely to have passed through the area, and English sailors returned there from wherever they'd been, which could easily have included Venice.

As I understand it the connection between Venice and the Ionian islands was much stronger, so it's less of a mystery how your piece ended up where it did.

[Raph77]

Yes the Ionian Islands belonged to Venice for many centuries, this is why also you can find a lot of family names which are a Greek variation of Italian names around here. I was curious to know the range of distribution of this coin, and it's interesting that it has been found so far as England. So they had the same designs for coins all over Europe? (if you say there were only silver and gold in England, it means they had their own Bagattinos there?)

[FosseWay]

No, the Venetian bagattinos will have been issued only in Venice (and possibly Venetian colonies), and each 'country' had its own distinctive coins. Any bagattinos that ended up as far afield as England were taken there by someone, not made locally.

With silver and gold there was a direct relationship between how much precious metal there was in the coin and what it was worth. So providing you knew the fineness of the coin (i.e. how pure the silver/gold is) and you had a set of scales to weigh it, you could determine its worth and accept it in payment. Who issued it and what its denomination was were fairly irrelevant.

With copper it's different. Most copper coins are 'tokens' in the sense that the metal value is not the same as the face value (and the latter is higher than the former). There are one or two examples of governments trying to make coins that are worth their weight in copper -- the British did in 1797 with pennies and twopences weighing 28 g and 56 g respectively, and the Swedes just got silly and issued plåtmynt (flat sheets of metal stamped with the king's mark) weighing up to 20 kg. These huge pieces didn't catch on, funnily enough.

Therefore most copper coins have only ever been worth what the people issuing them say they're worth, and that means you have to have confidence in the issuer. If you're an innkeeper on the Isle of Wight in the 16th century you've no reason at all to have any faith in a little copper coin issued somewhere you've never heard of.

[Figleaf]

Even in the 15th century, Venetians travelled as far as England. In previous centuries, their North-Westernmost outpost had been Brugge/Bruges, but as they became aware of the importance of London for the woollen trade, they started crossing over. Soon, they had an embassy (trading post) in London and Venice born merchants and financiers (as well as the Lombard competition) were instrumental in establishing London as a regional financial centre.

For a 15th century fisherman carrying Ventian passengers, all it took to land or strand on the Isle of Wight instead of London was a good storm in the Pas de Calais/Straits of Dover. Even much heavier East India-men and navy ships could be thrown completely off course by those storms.

Peter

[Raph77]

Amazing adventures of little pieces of metal!
Thank you for your explanations, it's very interesting.