Author Topic: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms  (Read 18732 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BC Numismatics

  • Guest
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2008, 03:58:00 AM »
Martin,
  The traders' currency token can be regarded as a coin,albeit,not as a regal coin.The traders' currency tokens from New Zealand,are in a sense,New Zealand's first coins.

Peter,
  The term 'medal-coin' is just a short way of saying 'medallic coin',as the term 'non-circulating legal tender' is an extremely confusing way of putting it.

Aidan.

Offline a3v1

  • Meritorious Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2008, 06:54:49 PM »
The term 'medal-coin' is just a short way of saying 'medallic coin',as the term 'non-circulating legal tender' is an extremely confusing way of putting it.
@ Aidan,
The expression "medal-coin" is a contradiction in terms as a coin is not a medal and a medal is not a coin. And "non-circulating legal tender" or NCLT expresses exactly the nature of many modern coins. Nothing could be less confusing ;)
Regards,
a3v1
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 09:42:29 AM by a3v1 »
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
-------------
Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

Offline ghipszky

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1 170
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2008, 04:23:43 AM »
Ditto!!!
Ginger

translateltd

  • Guest
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2008, 04:46:18 AM »
Not that I'm necessarily siding with anyone in this discussion (which is most interesting - let's keep it going), but my argument would be that NCLT aren't really "coins" anyway, as they are not intended for circulation or use in trade at all, despite the presence of a denomination on them.  As I think I mentioned above, their function is far closer to that of a commemorative medal in most cases, hence my preference for "denomination-bearing medals".  This at least discourages people from thinking they're something they are not, but isn't intended to discourage people from collecting them either, if they so choose.  I'm quite a fan of "real" commemorative medals, and NCLT/DBMs could, if you stopped to think about it, be considered as a separate category of those :-)

Martin
NZ

Offline chrisild

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8 917
  • NW · DE · EU
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2008, 12:41:19 PM »
Maybe I should re-post some part of the Wikipedia article ;D - basically, the part that is highlighted (yellow) here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Medal-coin&diff=prev&oldid=168143115
Fortunately previous versions do not simply "vanish" whenever somebody modifies an article ...

Christian

translateltd

  • Guest
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2008, 08:57:40 PM »
Was the text in yellow the "extremely inaccurate rubbish" that the reviser so diplomatically claimed to have deleted?

Martin
NZ

Offline chrisild

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8 917
  • NW · DE · EU
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2008, 12:34:39 PM »
Seems so, yes. While "non-circulating legal tender" is somewhat bulky, and its abbreviation NCLT may not be well known by itself, I still prefer it over terms that in one way or another refer to medals. My primary reason is that anybody can have medals made, but coins are issued by (or on behalf of) an issuing authority, usually a national government.

Sure, many medals are/were accepted as means of payment like coins, especially in former times when it was basically the metal content that determined the value of a piece. Or telephone tokens may be accepted instead of low value coins if there is a change shortage. On the other hand, may coins "from" Liberia, the Cook Islands, Palau, etc. will be virtually unknown in the country/territory that officially issues them.

One time I came across the definition that a coin is a piece listed in a coin catalog. Liked that. ;D

Christian

Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32 352
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2008, 07:27:53 PM »
Well said, Christian.

My problem with NCLT is the LT part. Not only does it suggest that only LT can be pseudo coins, which is wrong, it also suggests that only LT can be coins, which is even wronger. LT is just irrelevant to what is a coin. The problem becomes what noun to use to replace LT. Non circulating coin suggests to me pieces like US half dollars and Canadian 50 cent pieces, but these are not NCLT.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

  • Guest
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2008, 09:12:33 PM »
I guess the LT part means that the "coins" in question have at least a shred of legitimacy, and if holders are ever stuck for cash they can still spend or redeem them for their nominal face value.  The term NCLT assumes the existence - since proven - of NCNLT (non-circulating NOT legal tender), such as some Marshall Islands and Cook Islands issues that the governments in question have refused to redeem.

I don't follow the logic of claiming that only LT items can have this status, and assume this can be overcome with the judicious use of NCNLT when the situation demands.

As for the use of the word "medals", words have fluid meanings over time, and the boundaries between coins and medals have always been vague: if you look at early descriptions of large Roman and Greek coins in particular, these are often referred to as "medals", where of course we would call them coins now.  Bear in mind, too, that medals are also produced by monarchs and governments, so this isn't an excluding factor either. 

I would also claim that the "authority" of some NCLT coins produced "on behalf" of many governments is pretty shaky (cf. recent issues produced by various private mints for places such as the Cook Islands) and doesn't help their "coin" status much.

At the end of the day, as long as we have our eyes open sufficiently to realise that these items are not "CLT" in any sense, that's all that matters.  If we choose to collect them, then fine, but knowing what they are is vital.

Martin
NZ

BC Numismatics

  • Guest
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2008, 10:28:50 PM »
I guess the LT part means that the "coins" in question have at least a shred of legitimacy, and if holders are ever stuck for cash they can still spend or redeem them for their nominal face value.  The term NCLT assumes the existence - since proven - of NCNLT (non-circulating NOT legal tender), such as some Marshall Islands and Cook Islands issues that the governments in question have refused to redeem.

I don't follow the logic of claiming that only LT items can have this status, and assume this can be overcome with the judicious use of NCNLT when the situation demands.

As for the use of the word "medals", words have fluid meanings over time, and the boundaries between coins and medals have always been vague: if you look at early descriptions of large Roman and Greek coins in particular, these are often referred to as "medals", where of course we would call them coins now.  Bear in mind, too, that medals are also produced by monarchs and governments, so this isn't an excluding factor either. 

I would also claim that the "authority" of some NCLT coins produced "on behalf" of many governments is pretty shaky (cf. recent issues produced by various private mints for places such as the Cook Islands) and doesn't help their "coin" status much.

At the end of the day, as long as we have our eyes open sufficiently to realise that these items are not "CLT" in any sense, that's all that matters.  If we choose to collect them, then fine, but knowing what they are is vital.

Martin
NZ

Martin,
  This goes to prove that there is a case for the reintroduction of the term 'medal-coin' to distinguish these issues from currency coins.

New Zealand is one country that has a lot of medal-coins churned out for it.You will be pleased to know that even the British Antarctic Territory has even had its first medal-coin issue recently.The South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands have also had medal-coins struck for it by the Pobjoy Mint,as has both Gough Island & Nightingale Island (which are part of Tristan da Cunha).

Tristan da Cunha has recently had its first circulating coins (as opposed to medal-coins) struck at the Pobjoy Mint,which strangely includes both a bimetal 25p. & a 1/2p..These depict sea life,including an eel on the 1/2p. coin.There is also a 1 Crown medal-coin depicting whales as well.

Aidan.

Offline Jislizard

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2009, 07:26:23 AM »
Well someone must be buying them or they wouldn't still make them.

I can't imagine why anybody who is interested in coins would want them and I can't imagine anyone that isn't interested in coins wanting them either but never-the-less they are churning them out. 

And it isn't just the Pobjoy and Franklin mints who are responsible, 'respectable' businesses like the Perth Mint are more than happy to celebrate the 17th Anniversary of the Wiggles (they haven't yet but it can only be a matter of time) with a selection of silver, gold, coloured and holographic coins.

Paying $13 for a $1 NCLT is a choice that is left up to the individual collector and if you have enough money then why not buy everything that is put out regardless of quality or theme?

It is only the people that can't afford to buy the whole lot and have to be selective that seem to have an issue with NCLT, the general public couldn't care less and as I only collect circulating coins which I pick up at face value I don't care either.  I occasionally find a NCLT $1 in my change, does it then become CLT?  Does it gain any validity amongst the collecting fraternity?

I don't look down on people who choose to collect NCLT, I do think it a bit worrying if they complain about the number of issues but continue to buy them anyway as they have to have the complete set, that is a sign of addiction and probably isn't healthy.

As to the term NCLT, it seems descriptive enough, those that don't know what it means are either getting into the hobby or have no interest in the hobby, the first can Google it and the rest can ignore it.  It is appearing in most of the catalogues now and seems as good a term as any.

I would rather pseudo coins be used for something else, things used in place of coins that aren't actually coins but where there aren't enough to have their own category. Tokens are pseudo coins used in place of coins and they are so commonplace they have their own category, but shells can be used in place of money and they could go in the pseudo coin category.

I don't collect shells but I do collect 'community' or 'local' currencies, they are Circulating Non-Legal Tender (CNLT) and I would be happy to call them pseudo coins as they serve the same role as a coin but do not have the sanction of the government and whilst non-legal is not 'illegal' they can cross the line, as in the case of the Liberty Dollar.

Mark

BC Numismatics

  • Guest
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2009, 07:31:21 AM »
Mark,
  I do collect the banknotes of the Chatham Islands,even though they are an obsolete private issue.I've also got one of the 200 known examples of the rare Chatham Islands $5 coin in my collection,which I bought for double the face value before I found out how rare they are.

Did you get any of the Lewes & Totnes 1 Pound notes?

Aidan.

Online Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32 352
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2009, 10:46:07 AM »
Thanks for digging up the thread, Jislizard

You have a point, of course that pseudo coins are made because there's a demand. However, you should ask yourself just why there is a demand. As you say "I can't imagine why anybody who is interested in coins would want them and I can't imagine anyone that isn't interested in coins wanting them either". I think demand comes mainly from these sources:

- Pack-rats fall for stuff that appeals to them. In that sense we are all pack-rats, but a real pack-rat is someone having trouble finding space to live in the same house as the collection. Extreme pack-rats get shown on television surrounded by their collection of teddy bears or toy cars. My favorite pack-rat collection is the Wade collection, housed in Snowshill manor. Pack-rats will buy anything, including pseudo-coins and that's their privilege.

- Retail "investors" are people who believe they are buying something of value that they can hold on to while it increases in value, so that they can sell it on to a collector. These people are foolish, but the world of retail investors is packed with fools. They will become somewhat wiser after their first deal, but their ranks seem to be replenished endlessly. "Caveat Emptor" applies to this group.

- Newbie collectors who are taken in by the advertising. Newbies all seem to make the same mistake: expensive = scarce = important = interesting. They can't see how a cheap Roman copper or a contemporary forgery can be interesting and a coloured pseudo coin can be boring. This group is what I worry about.

The first rule of collecting is never to tell someone else what (not) to collect. Therefore, those who spend money on them, know what pseudo coins are and still want to buy them for their own reasons (e.g. theme collectors, who collect pictures in metal, rather than coins, collectors who include borderline cases and pseudo coins found in circulation) are fine in my mind. However, I think it behooves them to know the status of what they collect and to help confused newbies make the distinction between coins that are money and pseudo coins.

It is different for newbie collectors who really believe the propaganda of the pseudo coin sellers. If they are not educated quickly, they will continue buying future disappointments. Here's where pseudo coins do real damage, turning away potential collectors. I think collectors who care about the future of coin collectors as well as dealers, who have an obvious stake in the future of coin collecting, have an obligation to educate newbies about the non-circulating status of pseudo coins.

A problem with all this is that the line between pseudo coins and circulating coins is fine and vague. There is a class of coins that confounds the issue. Consider euro issues. The values up to 1 euro and the circulation 2 euro coins are clearly coins. The silver and gold pieces sold (way) above face value, proof only issues and the like are clearly pseudo coins. In between are 2 euro pieces and some silver pieces that can be had at face value but are rarely found in circulation. Different collectors will define them differently and that's fine too. What's important is that their status is clear: they hardly ever / sometimes / often circulate and are never / seldom / often accepted as payment.

I am proud that this information is discussed and available on this site. This site also contains wildly enthusiastic endorsements of what are clearly pseudo coins. In all of these threads, someone is pointing out that the pieces in question do not circulate, are not money, or are not even coins. That does not mean that those who collect them are banned from this site or told not to collect them. It does mean that we take the obligation to inform newbies seriously, even if it means we have to repeat the arguments tediously every time someone believes they have to advertise a pseudo issue as if it is a real coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline tonyclayton

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 479
    • Coins of the UK
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2009, 08:24:40 PM »
I personally do distinguish between those coins produced by tiny islands where there is no intention for them to circulate, and I class Alderney as an example here. The Royal Mint often advertise new Alderney crowns as if they are UK coins, with no mention of the country in the description, and only a very close look at the inscription on the diagram reveals the truth.  Tristan da Cunha is even worse as only the initials TDC are used on the coin.
Furthermore they are often only issued as proofs.

UK crowns, with the notable exception of that 1951 example, are generally issued in circulation quality as well as proof, and do sometimes circulate (for a short time!)

Offline Jislizard

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: NCLT, pseudo coins and other terms
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2009, 08:23:45 AM »
Quote
Did you get any of the Lewes & Totnes 1 Pound notes?

Aidan.

I did manage to get a Lewes Pound off eBay only to find it had a crease, straight down the middle, seller forgot to mention that I guess!

I have not managed to track down a Totnes Pound as yet but I did "win" another Lewes pound along with the info pamphlet which is still at my UK address, hopefully without a crease.

I myself am a bit of a pack-rat, fortunately the move to Australia made me "rationalise" my collection, out with the McDonald's Toys, out with the cereal premiums, goodbye to all the Star Wars ephemera (well mostly). 

It is only the coins and Banknotes that made the trip, and I have a few pseudo coins in that lot, but they were limited editions!  I think my Beefeater Gin and my Eurotunnel souvenir medals are the only real offenders but they were never issued as coins and there was never any confusion about that. 

There was a while back though when I had cable TV and access to the shopping channels that I was tempted, fortunately I had no credit cards then so I have saved a fortune.  Also there is more info now about these issues. 

Back then I lived nowhere near a coin shop and had no idea how to go about finding one, the internet wasn't available.  The only exposure I got to any coins was on this shopping channel and they assured me that they were limited edition (a good thing) only available from the channel (which meant only me and about 3 other people up at 02:00 AM would be able to get them).

Now you are inundated by thousands of offers of collectibles, I am on too many private mint mailing lists (including the Royal Mint in the UK that are giving me the opportunity to celebrate the Nth anniversary of the Mini Cooper).  You get a much better idea that if you don't manage to secure this once-in-a-lifetime offer there will at least be another once-in-a-lifetime offer next week.

I also remember back in the UK there was a "build your Banknote collection week by week" magazine, much like the ones you get for "Build a remote control car / pirate ship / mineral collection week by week" that seem universal.  The first edition, much like them all, was practically given away, the rest were ridiculously overpriced for low denomination banknotes, however they did have a magazine with them and the full collection would have been impressive, if not a little expensive.

There will always be new ways of marketing the same old rubbish so it is good that there are people willing to educate beginners, now all they have to look out for are the fakes.

MArk