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George V

Started by ghipszky, July 24, 2008, 01:29:59 AM

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ghipszky

This coin is 32mm and is from 1936. I am assuming it is a British coin. Am I right??
Ginger

translateltd

Quote from: ghipszky
This coin is 32mm and is from 1936. I am assuming it is a British coin. Am I right??
Ginger

Yep - you need to rotate the reverse 90° to the left, though, to get the crowned G's either side of the shield right way up :-)

Martin
NZ

a3v1

Krause & Mishler: Great Britain KM#835.
Half crowns ( of a Pound) have been struck under many different rulers; in silver up to 1946, and in cupronickel from 1947 until decimalization.
As in the decimal system a half crown would equal 12½ New Pence the type was abandoned.
Regards,
a3v1
Over half a century of experience as a coin collector.
-------------
Money is like body fat: If there's too much of it, it always is in the wrong places.

BC Numismatics

Ginger,
  There was 30 pre-decimal Pence in 1/2 Crown,as a Florin (or 2 Shillings) was a 24d. coin.

Aidan.

Figleaf

This design is exceptional in the sense that it has a denomination on it, yet it is British. The reason is once again the French revolution. It was unusual for coins to have a denomination before the French revolution. The most important reason for this was that the ruler issuing the coin could value them "at will". Of course, the tariffication would be restricted by weight and metal used, so having a value on a coin was acually a sign that something was wrong: if you put 1 Daler on small copper coins of Sweden, the reason is that a Daler should actually be large silver coin. However, a gold sovereign had a value of anywhere from 32 to 19 shillings, depending on time and even place.

The French revolutionaries changed that. Coins got a fixed tariffication. A décime was always ten centimes and 1/10th of a Franc. However, England was putting itself up as the leader of the anti-revolutionaries, trying to adopt as few of the reforms of the French revolution as possible, including decimalization, 20 hour days, 500 (or 100) degrees in a circle, a constitution and the revolutionary calendar. Some of this, including denominations on coins, was senseless conservatism, as they had no qualms about putting denominations on colonial coins.

While the denomination was a concession, at least it was spelled out in letters and only the name of the coin (HALF CROWN) was given, not a number and a unit or its subdivision (2-1/2 shillings). This reminds me of US coins, which at least in the last century do not have a denomination, but only the name of the coin (dime, quarter) spelled out in letters. This is all the more remarkable because the US is an immigration country (numbers are easier tan letters if you don't speak the language) and because there are no US coins issued in the middle ages or renaissance, so we are looking at a pure anti-revolutionary sentiment.

Another feudal aspect of the coin is the coat of arms and the funny titles of nobility. Revolutionaries don't need them. There's a story of a nobleman trying to escape Paris after the beheading of Louis XVI. At the gates of the city, he gave his name as "Comte de Saint Cyr". The guard said the revolution had done away with counts and saints and there was no sire either and people without a name could not leave Paris. :)

The first (upper left) and second (lower right) quarters have three lions "passant, guardant", that is, they walk past and lift a front paw. They stand for England. In the third quarter is a "climbing" lion in a border, the traditional banner of Scotland. The fourth quarter has a harp, meaning Ireland. These three nations are united in one country.

Such was the case before the French revolution. Countries were private property that could be inherited, whether or not the subjects liked the new ruler. If there was a conflict between the ruler and the population, the ruler won: an inheritance in Germany could mean that a land would change from Catholic to Protestant or the other way around. The ruler of the Southern Netherlands was at one time a severely handicapped, long-haired, foul-smelling boy speaking Spanish. Both the English and the French kings would ban local languages, whether German or Celtic and superimpose their own language. The modern equivalent of this idea is the "melting pot" dogma. However, the US is for the most part avoiding coats of arms, using symbols (bald eagle, state flowers) and feudal seals instead.

The titles "FIDEI DEFENSOR" (defender of the faith) and "INDIANUM IMPERATOR" (emperor of India) are decidedly funny. The first goes back to Henry VIII's decision to be his own pope, so he could keep on re-marrying. It is reminiscent of the "slayer of infidels" title recently found by Rangnath. Can you see George V, or Elizabeth II go out and defend any faith? Can you believe her majesty's government cares only about Anglicans? Here, the US equivalent is IN GOD WE TRUST. Although the text could be explained to encompass Allah, few Americans think that it refers to anything else but Christianity.

Emperor is a funny translation of "badshah". Every Asian ruler had his title translated as emperor where possible and the original meaning of emperor (successor of the ruler of the Roman empire) is lost. When Victoria got the title empress of India after the great mutiny, her evil uncle Willy ;) (William II, emperor of Germany) wrote her a letter starting "Dear colleague". Victoria was not amused. The Indian title is of course not comparable with anything in the European system of nobility. The closest thing in the US may be expressions like "American president", since the person is president only of the USA and not of the rest of the continent.

The point I wanted to make in this long-winded contribution is that the coin is really deeply conservative and that its attitude is reflected in US coins as well. That's another one of the great advantages of collecting coins. It gives you a wonderful sense of historical perspective.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

translateltd

Quote from: Figleaf on July 24, 2008, 11:43:04 AM
This design is exceptional in the sense that it has a denomination on it, yet it is British. The reason is once again the French revolution. It was unusual for coins to have a denomination before the French revolution.

Unusual, yes, but not impossible - many silver coins from the reign of Edward VI (1547-53) onwards showed the denomination as a Roman numeral behind the king's head, or on the reverse in the case of coins of Charles II, during the Civil War of the 1640s in particular.  The practice was also found on certain gold coins in the 17th century.  While the value of the guinea (more so than the sovereign) may have fluctuated for 60 years or so following its introduction in the 1660s before settling at 21s, the silver tended to be stable - a crown, halfcrown, shilling or sixpence remained exactly that even in the absence of a marked denomination and would be identified by size alone.  I am not aware of their value ever being tampered with - the Brits were above such things :-)

Quote from: Figleaf on July 24, 2008, 11:43:04 AM
When Victoria got the title empress of India after the great mutiny, her evil uncle Willy ;) (William II, emperor of Germany) wrote her a letter starting "Dear colleague". Victoria was not amused.

Sure you are talking about her uncle?  The German Emperor in 1876 was Wilhelm I, her daughter's father-in-law (a relationship for which we don't have a word in English).  In any case, however, I associated this story with a somewhat later year and her psychotic grandson (*that* was Willy II, and even more reason for her not to have been amused!)

Martin
NZ

Figleaf

#6
Right on both counts, Martin.

I wasn't writing specifically with English coins in mind. You'll find that there are few coins of the Southern Netherlands, for instance that carry a denomination, while later old coins of Liège/Luik do have them. French coins with denomination are not common, except among the coppers. Later small value Austrian coins tend to have them (in a cartouche), but there are few on older, larger silver pieces. German coins of the nineteenth century often have them, but that's more so that they can serve in other currency areas inside Germany. Russia went decimal early and with that came denominations. I suppose the English problem may have been too many denominations that look alike (see the rose on Elizabethan small silver on every other denomination). To avoid such problems, the Habsburgs used different reverse designs.

As for the story, as told the culprit was William II. That doesn't fit date-wise, but it fits with emperor Bill's undiplomatic character, so it may indeed have happened later. The story may be apocryphal, but it's too good not to be re-told. >:D Oh, and William II was referred to as Uncle Willy by members of the British royal family.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

ghipszky

Lots of comments. My brain is used to ancient info, this stuff is confusing!
Can anybody turn the reverse the right way?? I wasn't downstairs when Skee was taking the pictures, I would have noticed this, but he isn't used to these types of coins.
Ginger

BC Numismatics

Ginger,
  If you do decide to collect this series of British 1/2 Crowns by date,you'd better look out for these dates; 1930,1932,& 1934.

Those are the key dates.The 1932 1/2 Crown turns up a lot over here in New Zealand for some strange reason,yet in Great Britain,it seldomly turns up.I can guess that the 1932 1/2 Crown was imported into New Zealand in huge numbers,as there was a coin shortage,just prior to New Zealand introducing its first proper coins in 1933.

Aidan.

ghipszky

Aidan,
Can you suggest a place to look for those dates of coins then???
Ginger

BC Numismatics

Ginger,
  You could try looking through http://www.ebay.co.uk .I'd be very surprised if there is anyone on http://www.coinday.com selling them.

Aidan.

ghipszky

Thanks Aidan, I will try it tomorrow.
Ginger