Author Topic: Numbered religious medal  (Read 2538 times)

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Offline bagerap

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Numbered religious medal
« on: September 25, 2012, 02:18:25 PM »
This medal contains its own little puzzle. On the obverse at about seven o/clock can be seen J72 or probably 172, stamped into the medal.

Google only throws up two hits for this piece, and both belong to the British Museum. Leaving aside the fact that they can't decide if it's Jesus or John the Baptist, it is significant that both medals appear to bear a similar number, unfortunately only one has been photographed.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=953942&partid=1&output=Terms%2F!!%2FOR%2F!!%2F16927%2F!%2F%2F!%2Fchrist+as+shepherd%2F!%2F%2F!!%2F%2F!!!%2F&orig=%2Fresearch%2Fsearch_the_collection_database%2Fadvanced_search.aspx&currentPage=4&numpages=10

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=77145&partid=1

I will be very surprised if anyone knows about the medal, but what about the numbers. Do they suggest anything to you? Are they some form of ticket?

Offline malj1

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 12:56:11 AM »
I cannot add much but was interested to see the first piece was from the Steve Cribb collection, I corresponded with him occasionally until his untimely death. He wrote the first catalogue of co-op tokens and another booklet of his collection of school attendance medals in the early 1980's. So there is the slim chance he also wrote a booklet of his religious medals. He published a series of booklets by various authors  under the umbrella title of Local Numismatics.

The second reference shows the piece stamped 292 in the Montague Guest collection, checking this # 1538 in his catalogue there is no further information except # 1537 is the same but stamped 188

It is Montague Guest who describes his piece as John the Baptist so no doubt the other was attributed to Jesus by Steve Cribb so we must give the BM the benefit of doubt!

... but what about the numbers. An early limited edition perhaps?
Malcolm
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Offline bagerap

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 01:19:47 AM »
Thank you Malcolm. I do sometimes wonder at the scope and breadth of your library. Just how many barns full of books do you have?  ;D

Offline Prosit

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 01:47:03 AM »
Since the lamb is haloed and seems to be the one with the cross I would supose that is reference symbolically to the "Lamb of God" (Jesus/Yeshua) and the one holding him (the one who prepared the way) would naturally seem to fall to John the Baptist (Bar Zacharias). John was susposedly related to Jesus in some way.

So I can see how the differences in opinion about who is portrayed might come about.

Is there any evidence in the image of water as part of the design low to the standing figure?

Dale

Offline malj1

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 03:39:52 AM »
I think the lower half show some kind of clothing he is wearing.

A search for MG 1537 brought up the other image of # 188 in the BM.
Malcolm
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Offline Prosit

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 03:51:40 AM »
In that image it appears the man is pointing to the lamb.  I think that siginificant. John announced the coming of the Christ, introduced him or pointed him out so to speak.

I see no evidence of water which, in my mind, would symbolize John entering the Jordan from the East to baptize the Christ which I thought it might allude to.

Interesting medal.

Dale




I think the lower half show some kind of clothing he is wearing.

A search for MG 1537 brought up the other image of # 188 in the BM.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 09:09:56 AM »
I'd definitely opt for John the Baptist. Not only because of the lamb and flag, but because the text above says "Prepare ye the way of the Lord". Anyone familiar with Handel's Messiah will recognise these words, which are a setting of Isaiah's prophecy about the coming of Jesus, whose way is prepared by John.

Offline bagerap

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 10:57:36 AM »
Thank you Fosse, I am indeed familiar with Handel's Messiah. So much so that I now have an earworm of a huge choir singing Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord.
Malcolm, what can I say, you are absolutely on top of your game. I am sharing these results with another forum, wherein I referred to you as erudite.
Justifiably it would seem.

It's good to see that 188 shares the same J for 1, only wondering how many of these there were.

Constanius, a good friend of WoC, comes up with the theory that they may have been some form of méreau or communion token:
http://www.hugenoot.org.za/mer-e.htm

It's getting interesting.

Thanks again,

Bob

Offline malj1

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 01:29:35 PM »
At first I had thought it a communion ticket, but after looking through Montague Guest's collection again along with Davis And Waters Tickets and Passes I feel it is an admission ticket or pass to a meeting of some kind, possibly a charity where the sale of the numbered tickets would raise an amount of money in aid of some worthy cause.

Numbered tickets were commonly issued in the 18th century for such gatherings.

Another similarly numbered item is mentioned on WOC at The Oratory

I notice the BM have dated the medal in your first link to 1777, I feel this is a mis-reading perhaps for a stamped number '177' as these were not dated.
[I filled in feedback to the BM suggesting this - to which they have just acknowledged receipt]
Malcolm
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Offline bagerap

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 01:41:16 PM »
I remember the Oratory thread, and it makes sense that these could be tickets. Now if we could only trace the event.........


Offline malj1

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 12:44:21 PM »
That's great, 309 the highest number yet and gives us now five specimens known.

So it was issued before that publication date of 1824 which is useful to know, but puzzled by the reference to 1737 although that is about the date I would expect. 
Malcolm
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Offline malj1

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 10:50:07 PM »

I notice the BM have dated the medal in your first link to 1777, I feel this is a mis-reading perhaps for a stamped number '177' as these were not dated.
[I filled in feedback to the BM suggesting this - to which they have just acknowledged receipt]

I received a reply today from the British Museum...

Thank you for your message.  I have made the correction to the entry.  This should go online within the next two or three weeks.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.


Offline bagerap

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Re: Numbered religious medal
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 12:56:59 PM »
This is the item mentioned above: