Author Topic: Another what is it  (Read 5443 times)

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Offline Prosit

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Another what is it
« on: May 26, 2008, 11:17:38 PM »
A good friend asked me what this is.  And of course I don't know...haveing a website about Austrian stuff, people assume I know a lot more than I do  ;D

Alms house token of some sort but anything else anyone knows would be greatly appreciated.

Dale

Offline ghipszky

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2008, 12:16:40 AM »
What a beauty! Are these types of token expensive to collect???
Ginger

translateltd

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 07:31:15 AM »
Nice item - interesting that I get not a single hit on Google for any of the legends, either as whole words, split up as on the token, substituting V for U, etc.  I would have thought someone would have documented it in an on-line source!

What size is it?

Martin
NZ

Offline Prosit

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 10:26:44 PM »
My friend has returned my email but didn't mention the size.  However he said the seller did provide him (just now returned his email) with this information:

"""“It's an Almshouse token issued to be used by what were known as the new poor; those people who had lost money in building speculation in Vienna after the Siege of Vienna in 1683. My understanding of this is any goods they happened to bring with them were auctioned to provide for their upkeep, and that presumably they were given these Tokens in return. The place where the goods were auctioned is still a (state run) auction house, known as the Doratheum.”"""


I have no idea what this type token costs but I think it is pretty interesting.
I have heard of the Doratheum  :)

Dale

Offline ghipszky

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 02:27:23 AM »
Really interesting information about this token. I think it is very inspiring, as far as a new collecting area for me.
Ginger

Offline chrisild

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 12:53:09 PM »
The place where the goods were auctioned is still a (state run) auction house, known as the Doratheum.
Or Dorotheum as we spell it in German. ;D
http://www.dorotheum.com/

Side note: Contrary to what that seller writes, the Dorotheum is not "state run". Originally was a public pawn shop, government operated indeed to keep the fees affordable. But later the auction business became more and more important, and the Dorotheum has been a private company since 2001 ...

Christian
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 12:54:47 PM by chrisild »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2008, 08:50:23 PM »
Sorry, Dale. Missed this one. It seems to me that the obverse bust is Christ. The latin might mean something like "what is poor is for me" or somesuch. I can't make much of the reverse legend, unless the P is an error for an R, in which case "centurium" is a Roman army unit headed by a centurion and reddo in this context means surrendered. However, reddo could also mean something like to return, to redress, or to reinstate. In combination with the wheat stalks you could suspect something like "hard work will return your wealth". I find the cartouche with 12 very interesting. It looks so much like a denomination that I checked KM to see if this wasn't a coin after all.

Bread tokens were in use long before 1728, but they were usually lead. I don't quite understand the seller's story about the use of this token. If stuff was sold, why not just give the "new poor" regular money? It looks to me like the tokens of religious organisation that could get you some bread, a place to sleep or to die from that organization. They could have been handed out for free or as a reward for odd jobs.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline ghipszky

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2008, 05:01:23 AM »
I agree with Figleaf, It does appear to represent Jesus on the obverse side.
Ginger

Offline Prosit

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2008, 12:41:39 PM »
I agree with Figleaf, It does appear to represent Jesus on the obverse side.
Ginger

Thanks, I considered that a given...maybe I shouldn't have.  Interesting piece whatever the story of its origin.

Dale


Offline Prosit

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2008, 02:08:12 PM »
Another response from my friend:

Dale,
“Centupium reddo” on the reverse means something like ”I give back a hundredfold”; {the P is intentional, not an error for an R}.  When I put the word into Google it directed me to Luke 8.8, which is maybe what the token is trying to quote.

Agree, the obverse is very much like a religious token whilst the cartouche just cries out “coin”.  An interesting mix; I nearly looked it up in Krause as well.

Guess my vendor was just trying to make best efforts to understand the piece, using the Internet. 

If you know any more information about Austrian bread tokens, including lead, I would be very interested to know where to find it.  You don’t have any on your http://www.austriancoins.com/TokensMain.html website?  I am studying lead tokens, mainly British, and produce a regular monthly newsletter on them; see www.leadtokens.org.uk .  I do put in European pieces when I get correspondence from people interested in them, and if you have any photos of Austrian pieces I will gladly include something, if you wish, to see if any of my readership can give us feedback. 

 “why not just give the "new poor" regular money?”  -  to stop them spending it on alcohol instead of bread, probably!  Certainly, to limit and control the range of use, in some way.

Trevor, whom I copied in earlier, is one of my fellow Token Corresponding Society members { http://www.tokensociety.org.uk/index.shtml } who is interested in bread tokens and other matters associated with the administration of public welfare, e.g. poorhouses and the like.  You will see his contribution to the TCS website at http://www.tokensociety.org.uk/topics/workhouse/index.shtml

If you go in on the TCS website, you will notice that I have recently contributed a Prosit Neujahr article for the first time http://www.tokensociety.org.uk/articles/prositneujahr/index.shtml   I am still waiting for the web author to include my pictures, but I have included a hyperlink to your website; so, you should hopefully be getting a few more readers!
Best wishes,David



Very Interesting
Dale

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2008, 10:51:39 PM »
Thanks Dale. Let's hope they join. We have stuff they'll like here and we can use their knowledge.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Prosit

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2008, 01:19:20 AM »
I've been trying to get David to join for ...well since I did...no luck yet.

Dale

translateltd

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2008, 11:50:29 AM »
The "Quod pauperi mihi" legend is curious, as I seem to get hardly any hits for that expression as a whole - with the "v" variant for the U in Pauperi, I found a medal for the Institute for the Poor (Poorhouse?) in Vienna - item 4 here:

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=458473&AucID=341&Lot=1651&Match=1

I wonder if the legends on obverse and reverse of the piece Dale illustrated follow on from each other, i.e. "What the poor [give] me, I shall give back a hundredfold"?

Martin
NZ

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2008, 12:18:30 PM »
"What the poor [give] me, I shall give back a hundredfold"?

Interesting speculation, but I don't think so. The message then becomes "hey, poor, gimme money", which is neither the function of a poor house, nor of Jezus. The message 'hey, poor, this way" seems more in line with their function.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Prosit

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Re: Another what is it
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2008, 02:52:34 PM »
I would tend to mix two bibilical passages together and get """"cast your bread upon the waters and it will return to you a hundredfold"""

But then I have a fanciful imagination  ;D

Dale
PS  I know that is a misquote   ;)