Author Topic: Defining Mules  (Read 2194 times)

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paisepagal

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Defining Mules
« on: April 30, 2012, 12:15:31 PM »
Check up the definition of a mule. It cannot be applied in this context. The mints have off late followed a mix and match policy that IMO talking about die variety vs mule is now nearly irrelevant . It's better to simply say "different"

Offline beekar

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Re: Defining Mules
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 10:30:07 AM »
Check up the definition of a mule. It cannot be applied in this context. The mints have off late followed a mix and match policy that IMO talking about die variety vs mule is now nearly irrelevant . It's better to simply say "different"
Dear Paisepagal, I would like to know if the definition of Mule coins have changed recently.

Any idea why is this variety mentioned as a mule in case of Mother Teresa on following website:

http://beekar-the-numismatist.blogspot.in/p/mule-coins-of-india.html

11) 2010, 5 Rs Mother Teresa Comm - mule issue of Hyderabad mint:


Dear kage01,
Plz read my views why I've shown this coin to be a mule coin in my blog.

From 2009, India started issuing 5 rs comm coins in Ni-Brass. In the year 2009, 3 coins were issued from Mumbai, Kolkata and Hyderabad mints. These are Alphonsa, Anna and 60yrs of Common wealth. On the obverse side of all these 3 coins, we find a thin lion. So in 2009 issue of all coins were with a thin lion.

In 2010, a coin commemorating Dr. Prasad was issued from all 4 Indian mints and on its obv we find a new lion, a fat lion. So we can tell that from 2010 the obv lion was changed to a fat lion.

We are not taking the 5 rs RBI issue into this discussion, as an altogether new obv die was used to mint it.

Again in 2010, coins commemorating Tagore and Teresa were issued from all 4 mints and a fat lion is found on the obv of these coins. But the obv of these coins issued from Hyd shows 2 types of lions, a fat lion similar to the lion found on Dr. R Prasad-2010 and a thin lion similar to the lion found on 2009 issue Alphonsa/Anna/60yrs common wealth.

So we can argue that the thin lion found on the obv of Tagore and Teresa coins, is not due to a change of die, but may be due to wrong use of the obv dies of Alphonsa/Anna/60yrs common wealth coins. Hence these 2 are definitely Mule coins.

The same logic can safely be applied to Temple issue of Mumbai and CWGames issue of Hyd and those can safely be called as mule coins.

I request Peter and all other members of this forum to post their opinion on my views. Thank u all. Happy hunting.

paisepagal

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Re: Defining Mules
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 10:54:31 AM »
Dear Paisepagal, I would like to know if the definition of Mule coins have changed recently.

Dear kage01,
Plz read my views why I've shown this coin to be a mule coin in my blog.

From 2009, India started issuing 5 rs comm coins in Ni-Brass. In the year 2009, 3 coins were issued from Mumbai, Kolkata and Hyderabad mints. These are Alphonsa, Anna and 60yrs of Common wealth. On the obverse side of all these 3 coins, we find a thin lion. So in 2009 issue of all coins were with a thin lion.

In 2010, a coin commemorating Dr. Prasad was issued from all 4 Indian mints and on its obv we find a new lion, a fat lion. So we can tell that from 2010 the obv lion was changed to a fat lion.

We are not taking the 5 rs RBI issue into this discussion, as an altogether new obv die was used to mint it.

Again in 2010, coins commemorating Tagore and Teresa were issued from all 4 mints and a fat lion is found on the obv of these coins. But the obv of these coins issued from Hyd shows 2 types of lions, a fat lion similar to the lion found on Dr. R Prasad-2010 and a thin lion similar to the lion found on 2009 issue Alphonsa/Anna/60yrs common wealth.

So we can argue that the thin lion found on the obv of Tagore and Teresa coins, is not due to a change of die, but may be due to wrong use of the obv dies of Alphonsa/Anna/60yrs common wealth coins. Hence these 2 are definitely Mule coins.

The same logic can safely be applied to Temple issue of Mumbai and CWGames issue of Hyd and those can safely be called as mule coins.

I request Peter and all other members of this forum to post their opinion on my views. Thank u all. Happy hunting.

First of all, I am limiting my comments to the NiBs coins since that was what i replied to Kage on...That said, you are technically wrong on your time-lines....the thin lion and fat lion existed for Perignar anna from the time the coin was issued. Similarly, if you take Prasad, Tagore and any of the other NiBs issued in 2010, you will notice the Thin lion in the UNC and proof set, but the fat lion in these circulation coins...now those same coins are issued with Thin lion too. There is nothing to say that the Hyderabad mint did not mint these coins back in 2009/10, but release them only now. if you consider the Thanjavur temple coin...you can refer to the thread on that theme where I have mentioned that the mint packet i purchased had both the lion types!

The definition of a mule has not changed afaik... but you do not have any concrete data for which lion must be applied for which coin. You may have noticed that the rbi notification will define the metallic content, the edge type and number of serrations of the edge...but not the way the lion must be portrayed.. You have simply gone by your experience of the coins you have come across. I have highlighted in bold, those particular phrases in which you attempted to make the jump from speculative conjecture to a declaration of fact. If you wish to still call it a mule, that is your call. For the reasons I have already stated, I simply don't.

My simple assumption is that production standards, especially at the Kolkatta and Hyderabad mints, have been thrown out the window. There are indeed two dies (maybe even three or four) of the obverse which the mints don't particularly bother in terms of which they use. This particular scenario does not fit into the definition of mule coins. There is no clear-cut way we can define what is the original intended design..and what is the mule as a result of it.

I don't see how Peter will be particularly helpful in this discussion purely on the ground that he is not as much in touch with very recent indian coinage as you and I are. However, as a general discussion, members can surely comment to better our understanding.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Defining Mules
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 03:26:06 PM »
A mule is generally understood to be a coin struck with two dies that are not intended to be used together. It is therefore not a variety, but a production error.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Bimat

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Defining Mules
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 05:32:19 PM »
IMHO, those thin and fat lion types are varieties and not mules. It's practically impossible to prove that  dies used for Alphonsa coins were used for the Tagore coins. On the other hand, if you find a Tagore coin with obverse showing the rupee symbol, then it's definitely a mule. ;)

Aditya
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Offline The Oracle

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Re: Defining Mules
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 05:37:05 PM »
First of all, I am limiting my comments to the NiBs coins since that was what i replied to Kage on...That said, you are technically wrong on your time-lines....the thin lion and fat lion existed for Perignar anna from the time the coin was issued. Similarly, if you take Prasad, Tagore and any of the other NiBs issued in 2010, you will notice the Thin lion in the UNC and proof set, but the fat lion in these circulation coins...now those same coins are issued with Thin lion too. There is nothing to say that the Hyderabad mint did not mint these coins back in 2009/10, but release them only now. if you consider the Thanjavur temple coin...you can refer to the thread on that theme where I have mentioned that the mint packet i purchased had both the lion types!

The definition of a mule has not changed afaik... but you do not have any concrete data for which lion must be applied for which coin. You may have noticed that the rbi notification will define the metallic content, the edge type and number of serrations of the edge...but not the way the lion must be portrayed.. You have simply gone by your experience of the coins you have come across. I have highlighted in bold, those particular phrases in which you attempted to make the jump from speculative conjecture to a declaration of fact. If you wish to still call it a mule, that is your call. For the reasons I have already stated, I simply don't.

My simple assumption is that production standards, especially at the Kolkatta and Hyderabad mints, have been thrown out the window. There are indeed two dies (maybe even three or four) of the obverse which the mints don't particularly bother in terms of which they use. This particular scenario does not fit into the definition of mule coins. There is no clear-cut way we can define what is the original intended design..and what is the mule as a result of it.

I don't see how Peter will be particularly helpful in this discussion purely on the ground that he is not as much in touch with very recent indian coinage as you and I are. However, as a general discussion, members can surely comment to better our understanding.

you know if peter could transfer 500$ in my bank account i could settle this dispute once and for all.  my investment banker friend told me dont give away what you can sell and he has made millions so ....    ;D ;D ;D