Author Topic: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins  (Read 7399 times)

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Offline Overlord

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Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« on: April 05, 2008, 10:53:44 AM »
Hi

Here are two Indo-Portuguese coins from my collection. I found these incredibly difficult to photograph---the camera picks up unwanted minute details, which makes it very difficult to make out numbers, etc. I have selected the best ones from about 60 images I had taken under different lighting conditions, angles, etc.

Coin 1
Obverse



Reverse






Coin 2
Obverse



Reverse




Here are the questions I have on these.

1. What is the denomination of the coins?
2. How do we read the dates on these coins---from left to right in each row (i.e., 1686 and 1619, respectively) or clockwise (1668 and 1691, respectively)?
3. I think I see "P" and "O", respectively, on either side of the coat of arms on the obverse of Coin 2. Do these stand for "Portugal"?

Offline lusomosa

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 08:50:42 AM »
I'll have a look into it. You will get the answer anyway from me or bookworm. I'll dig in te catalogue and give you the answer ASAP.

LP

Offline Overlord

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2008, 01:45:14 PM »
I'll have a look into it. You will get the answer anyway from me or bookworm. I'll dig in te catalogue and give you the answer ASAP.

LP
Thanks LP.

Offline Oesho

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2008, 08:29:18 PM »
Dear Overlord, mind you providing the weight of the coins.
They are issues of Diu, but it could be a copper Bazaruco, 1/2 Atia or a Atia. All depends on the weight.

Offline lusomosa

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 10:54:53 AM »
Good one Oesho,  I'll wait as well. ;)

Offline Bookworm

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2008, 01:19:37 PM »
Here are the questions I have on these.

1. What is the denomination of the coins?

The first coin is either a 1/2 Bazaruco, a Bazaruco or 2 Bazarucos. In 1686, all these three denominations were issued. 1668 can be ruled out, as no coppers were minted in that year. You can determine the denomination by the diameter and weight of the coin:

1/2 Bazaruco: 14mm, 2.6 grams
Bazaruco: 18mm, 3.7/7.0 grams
2 Bazarucos: 24mm, 6.8/8.2 grams

The second coin is thougher to identify. It can't be a 1619 coin, and in 1691 no coppers were issued. Are you sure the last 1 is realy a 1? ???
Again, the options for the denomination are the 1/2 Bazaruco, the Bazaruco and the 2 Bazarucos, and the denomination can be determined by the diameter and weight of the coin. The coin could have been minted either during the regency of prince Peter, or during his reign as Peter II. During the regency the diameters and weights were:

1/2 Bazaruco: 12 mm, 1.6/2.4 grams
Bazaruco: 15 mm, 3.5/4.6 grams
2 Bazarucos: 24 mm, 6.2 grams

During the reign of Peter II, the diameters and weights were the ones I already gave for the first coin.

2. How do we read the dates on these coins---from left to right in each row (i.e., 1686 and 1619, respectively) or clockwise (1668 and 1691, respectively)?

Both systems were used. And to make things more interesting, sometimes some digits of the date are inverted.  ::)

3. I think I see "P" and "O", respectively, on either side of the coat of arms on the obverse of Coin 2. Do these stand for "Portugal"?

As Oesho said, the coins are Diu issues, and the P is realy a D.  ;D

Oesho, no Atias or 1/2 Atias were issued during the 17th century.

Lusomosa, thanks for the heads up, but you do have the same catalogs I have. Feeling lazy, are we?  ;)

Hope all of this helps.

Aldo

Offline Oesho

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2008, 01:42:13 PM »
Oesho, no Atias or 1/2 Atias were issued during the 17th century.
You're correct.

Offline Overlord

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2008, 06:14:53 PM »
Thanks a ton everyone!

Aldo, I'll have a closer look at the "1" on the second coin (could even be 5---does that fit in?). Sadly, I have no immediate means of determining the weight of these. Every time I set aside some money for that cool digital balance, I end up spending it on more coins  :P

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 07:14:11 PM »
The scale I have set me back $10 and works much better than my previous method.
I took a straight edge (ruler) and found the true center by hanging half off of a table.  Then I developed a series of weights:  modern coins with known weights in grams.  And then I put my coin to be weighed on one side and my weights on both and gently moved my straight edge until I reached the center mark with balance maintained. 
It was easy, FUN and entertained my dog.  My parrot however, was not amused.
richie

Offline lusomosa

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 10:12:40 PM »
Good work guys.

And to you Bookworm I an indeed a bit lazy ...... When I'm not at work an am at home working at some building activities  :P . Therefore I gave you the tip about this thread as I Know you are a good expert.  8)

All the best

LP

Offline Bookworm

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 12:33:24 PM »
I'll have a closer look at the "1" on the second coin (could even be 5---does that fit in?).

I'm afraid that only adds to the confusion... The only candidate I can find is a 1656 Bazaruco, but the picture in the catalogue shows the 5 to be inverted, thus looking like a 2, and a horizontal last 6!  :-\
By the way, if it turned out that your coin was indeed a 1656 Bazaruco, that would be quite a catch. The catalogue states it is a rare coin.  :o

Sadly, I have no immediate means of determining the weight of these. Every time I set aside some money for that cool digital balance, I end up spending it on more coins

I've been there... Maybe you could ask a jeweller to weight the coin for you. Avoid the posh ones, they probably don't even know what a digital balance is...  ;D
You can still measure the coins' diameter. You do have a ruler, right?  ;)

Richie, I had the same idea, but never got to try it. Though inaccurate, that method can at least provide a rough estimate of the coin's weight.

I Know you are a good expert.  8)

Why do I have a feeling my good friend Luis is going to try and borrow some money from me?  ;D

Aldo

Offline Rangnath

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 04:48:21 PM »
Bookworm,
I was surprised at how accurate my system was! I used a metal meter straight edge  balanced off the edge of my table.  The problem was that if I was not careful, the stright edge and weighted coins would crash to the ground and my African Grey would take flight with my dog in hot pursuit.  Scales are a real time saver!
richie

Offline Bookworm

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 05:16:07 PM »
I guess it all depends on how accurate your weights are, and how careful you are.
OK, now I know why your parrot was not amused by the method. I had forgot to ask on my previous post.  :)

Aldo

Offline Overlord

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 06:42:47 PM »
You can still measure the coins' diameter. You do have a ruler, right?  ;)
Aldo
Aldo, thanks again for the help. Which one would I rather buy, a ruler or a George VI Quarter Anna  :-\


Offline Bookworm

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Re: Questions on two Indo-Portuguese coins
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 08:28:43 PM »
Funny thing about us coin collectors: we have lots of coins, and yet we are always short of money...  ;D
Glad I could be of assistance.

Aldo