Author Topic: Troubled coins  (Read 12251 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EWC

  • Meritorious Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 807
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2019, 11:30:36 AM »
The coin could us a good cleaning as you say, but I very rarely clean counterstamped coins...particularly these modern ones. The grit, grime, stains, and toning found on many of the Troubles pieces help me authenticate them. Though it would seem nearly impossible to determine a fake from a legitimate example. it really isn't. There are many, many red flags to look for, most all of them subtle but still there to tell a tale. The surface  condition is a very important one.

Yes - completely agree - (I thought that myself - but kept quiet).

The green staining on the salmon piece is the sort of thing you might get on a piece specifically put aside in an old leather purse or some such - and that itself is an integral part of it's history

Rob T

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 585
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2019, 11:33:39 AM »
I see your point. I wonder if there are many imitations, though. The silence of the members here says something. Not getting any comments from others is a further indication. Sure, these pieces are rare, not even scarce. However, demand approaches zero. It's that way with tokens also.

Furthermore, there are ways to produce any kind and colour of patina. The mere fact that there's green stuff on top of a coin means nothing by itself. However, the wrong green stuff on a bronze or copper piece may destroy the coin - and it's contagious.

Nevertheless, you are the final arbiter of what you do with your coins. You should just take your decisions with all the relevant facts in mind.

As for the 8, if memory serves (pfft!), the Orange marches were organised in sections, e.g. section 8, the dark looking radicals, would get ready to start marching right after section 7, the hoompah band with the stout fellow carrying the giant drum, but before section 9, the battle re-enacters. ;)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2019, 03:36:06 PM »
As you say, Rob, the method of storage is critical in how any coin will survive. I've always associated "green slime" with long exposure to plasticized coin flips or other less obvious environmental contaminants. Non-archival paper envelopes seem to leave dull gray unattractive coloring on silver and copper-nickel coins. As real estate agents say the most important three factors in selecting a home are location...location...location. Not strictly true of course, but in coin storage it is.

Thanks for your comments.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2019, 04:14:53 PM »
You're right of course, Peter, in saying that toning and surface characteristics can be replicated. However, by carefully examining a coin and knowing what to look for (depth of color, patterns of toning, and of course the overall "look") a lot of AT can be detected. The SF and 1690 examples don't fall into the AT category though as they're more damaged than toned.

In collecting these Troubles counterstamps I have some distinct advantages. Until a few years ago I saw few if any fake pieces. The market was...and still is... very thin for them, and it wasn't unusual for me to pick up an example for a dollar or two. As a matter of fact, the postage fee more often than not exceeded the cost of the coin.

That's changed in the past few years, unfortunately.The hoax was perpetuated by just a few dishonest sellers, who now seem to have shifted their attention to pushing fake "Votes For Women" counterstamps...and asking strong money for them. At any given moment there's at least 12 or 15 coins appearing in eBay auctions. IMO, they're all fakes. I wouldn't mind adding a legitimate example to my own collection, but don't even trust myself to select an authentic one. I just stay away from them.

Thanks for weighing in on the possible reason for the "8" stamped on the Penny. Your guess is as good as mine...actually better than mine as I don't have one. Cheers!

Bruce
Bruce

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2019, 04:27:38 PM »
Eirigi means "rise" or "arise" and is the name of a small far-left political party (Nationalist) headquartered in Dublin. They were organized in 2006 by former Sinn Fein members dissatisfied with the party's move towards accommodation with Unionists.

They were a grassroots organization interested only in local elections with no aspirations for higher office.

I believe they first stood for elections in 2010 or 2011, but had no electoral success. They contested for seats in the Lower Falls and Upper Falls of Belfast, and in Dublin, Weyford, and Wicklow.

The number of members is unknown, but likely very small.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 585
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2019, 08:19:16 PM »
So this one is post-troubles. A fun piece of history nevertheless. Glad you have identified the inscription. Someone has spent a lot of time to make this little monument for this lost cause.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2019, 11:03:02 AM »
The only fairly prolific issuer of counterstamped coins post-troubles is the Real IRA (RIRA). Formed in 1997, they stamped many British Pound and 2-Pound coins most dated in the late 1990s and early 2000s. They have a distinctive look...heavy strike over the Queen's portrait. The group is usually referred to as the New IRA in news accounts and elsewhere.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2019, 06:19:54 PM »
This is a typical RIRA stamp, though more lightly struck than most. I've only seen a couple struck on Irish coins.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2019, 04:39:19 PM »
Though not often seen, I've occasionally come across coins with scratched or engraved slogans, initials or images. These three, actually five, were part of a larger lot of political issues I bought from a man in Telford in 2014. Though very similar in style, the toning on some is significantly different which suggests they may have come from different sources. One example not pictured has vertical bands of medium gray toning on the reverse. The seller came across them in a huge 600 kilo job lot of mostly foreign coins.

The engraved crown over the harp is an obvious Unionist reference and is reminiscent of the old Hibernia coppers with the crown topping the Irish harp. I've also included an 1816 Edward Stephens token with a Union Jack counterstamped over the harp. Basically the same meaning, but expressed differently. This one was acquired from a dealer in Bingham in 2012. All are an interesting way to express a political view.

By the way, does anyone know if the Stephens piece is considered a Conder Token? If it is, would you also know the reference number?  Many thanks.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 585
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2019, 10:21:46 PM »
I don't have Conder's book. The token is listed in Davis: Dublin 26-33. It is a bit too far gone or buried under the counterstamp for a more precise id.

Ironically, the token sports a crowned harp. The royalist counterstamper may not have seen that reference to the UK, as the crown is largely worn off. That may mean that the token was counterstamped when it was already quite worn, therefore later than its date suggests.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2019, 11:41:06 AM »
A bit of overkill on that one for sure. No question that the Union Jack was struck on the token later, but not a whole lot I think.

The Conder reference is another book I'd like to get. I've always had an interest in American Hard Times tokens, so it was a natural for me to also have an interest in these. Thanks for the Davis number.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28 585
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2019, 12:09:05 PM »
Conder is superseded by Atkins (available from the WoC bookshelf), which is superseded by Davis in 1904. There are later books (notably Seaby, a precis of Dalton & Hamer as well as Davis), but they are just rewrites of Davis, except for British Copper Tokens 1811-1820 by Paul and Bente Withers ISBN 0951667157. This book, not Conder, is the one to go for. It is still available at the Galata web site

Peter
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 12:25:14 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline brandm24

  • BR & M
  • Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2019, 03:53:53 PM »
Thanks, Peter.

Bruce
Bruce